Janet's Genealogy

Mar Family

Earls of Mar:

Ruadri de Mar

Morgund mac Gylocher, 2nd Earl of Mar md Agnes, Countess of Mar - Morgund de Mar Morgund mac Gylocher, 2nd Earl of Mar; married (1) ?, married (2) Agnes, Countess of Mar. Morgund died before 30 Mar 1183, buried at Priory of St Andrews, Fife, Scotland. Agnes, Countess of Mar; married Morgund mac Gylocher . Agnes was buried at Priory of St Andrews, Fife, Scotland.

Duncan was the son of Morgund, 2nd Earl of Mar who was in turn the son of Ruadri or Rotheri, 1st Earl of Mar. Duncan de Mar. Duncan, 4th Earl of Mar; died before 7 Feb 1244, buried at Aberdeen Cathedral, Scotland.

William was in turn the son of Duncan (4th Earl) who died circa 1244. . William de Mar md. Elizabeth Comyn William , 5th Earl of Mar; married (1) Elizabeth COMYN, married (2) Muriel of Strathearn. William died mid 1281 Elizabeth COMYN, married William of Mar. Elizabeth died 1267 Donald (the 6th Earl) was the son of William, 5th Earl of Mar and Elizabeth Comyn

Donald (6th Earl) was married to Helen, daughter of Llewelyn the Great, Prince of North Wales (Helen #2 was Llywelyns illegitimate daughter) Donald (6th Earl) as July 25, 1297??) Helen ferch Llywelyn of Wales, born about 1234, married (1)Malcolm MacDUFF, 7th Earl of Fife, married (2) Donald of Mar

Donald, 6th Earl of Mar; married Helen ferch Llywelyn of Wales. Donald died after 25 Jul 1297

(The illegitimate Helen (who is only supposed to be a bastard of Llywelyn's, and not fully confirmed) was much younger, maybe born about 1234? Her mother is not known. She married (1) Malcolm MacDuff, Earl of Fife (d. 1266), and had at least one child (Colban MacDuff, Earl of Fife). She married (2) in about 1275 Donald, Earl of Mar (d.1297?), and had at least three children -

Garnait/Gratney, Earl of Mar; . Gratney, 7th Earl of Mar; born 1272; married about 1292, Christian BRUCE. Gratney died before Sep 1305

Isobel, married King Robert the Bruce

Chick here for the Bruce family page

Click here for theBruce

Margaret, married John of Strathbogie, Earl of Atholl.

All three of these children also had offspring.

Helen, Llywelyn died in 1240, so 1240/41 is a terminal end date for her birth.?) 2. Donald de Mar ?-Aft. 1297 and Helen verch Llewelyn

More on the Children

Eldest son Colbran of Fife was a minor when his father died in 1266 but had been knighted in 1264 by Alexander III. Most sources give a birth date 1246-1250 - probably towards the start of that range

Eldest son of the 2nd marriage Gratney of Mar was joint keeper of the shire of Aberdeen in 1297. He is said to have been born in 1272 although CP gives no dates.

Daughter Isobel of Mar, wife of Robert Bruce, is said to have been born c1276, daughter Margaret.

Donald, 6th Earl of Mar was succeeded by his son Gartney who was married to Christian Bruce (Sister of King Robert I) and Christian was married secondly to Patrick Dunbar

Donald, 8th Earl of Mar, Regent of Scotland, son of Gratney, 7th Earl of Mar, and Christian Bruce killed in battle 12 August 1332 Dupplin married Isabel Stewart died circa 15 June 1347/15 January 1348 in London Isabel Stewart parents Alexander Stewart wife Jean Cord/Macrory Stewart Birth: 1214/1220 Dundonald, Scotland . Alexander HIGH STEWART Spouse: Jean OF BUTE Marriage: Abt. 1242 Of, , Scotland

Christian de Bruce was the wife of Sir Gratney de Mar, 7th Earl of Mar. They were the parents of Sir Donald de Mar (?-1332), 8th Earl of Mar and Regent of Scotland. Christian de Bruce was the wife of Sir Gratney de Mar, 7th Earl of Mar. They were the parents of Sir Donald de Mar (?-1332), 8th Earl of Mar and Regent of Scotland.

Donald, 8th Earl of Mar, probably succeeded in 1305. He was taken to England and, in 1306, was ordered, as "l'enfant qui est heir de Mar", to be warden in Bristol Castle but, because of his tender years, was not to be put in irons. He had been delivered to the Bishop of Chester for this purpose, but by the king's subsequent order remained in the Royal household. However, he was brought up at the English court and, so strong was his attachment to England or to the English king that, when after Bannockburn he was expected to return to Scotland, on reaching Newcastle he turned back and chose to remain in England.

In July 1319 he went to Scotland in the English king's service and, in June 1320, was in King Edward's train on his journey to France to do homage for Ponthieu and Aquitaine. In February 1321, he had protection for a pilgrimage to Santiago.

On 30 January 1322, as Donald de Mar, the King's yeoman, he was appointed Keeper of Newark Castle. In October 1322 he was with King Edward II at Byland when he was surprised by the Scots. When the opposition to Edward II began to merge into rebellion, Donald received two commissions to act with his whole company in the Marches of Wales against rebels and invaders. After the king's capture and deposition, Donald of Mar repaired at last to Scotland, in the hope of raising forces to restore Edward II, and led one of the three armies which entered England in July 1327.

Upon his return to his native country, his own grant to Cupar and King Robert's grants to him style him as the Earl of Mr. After the death of the Earl of Moray, in spite of his leanings to Edward Baliol and his almost lifelong absence in England, he was chosen Regent to succeed Moray, probably by reason of his close relationship to the young King.

However, his training and experience could not have equipped him for the duties, either military or political, of such a position, and he was killed on the 12th of August 1332. His widow, Isabel Stewart, married twice more and died in London approximately 15 January 1348.

The Earldom of Mar passed into the Douglas via the marriage of Margaret daughter of (according to Burke)

Donald, the 12th Earl of Mar and sister of Thomas.

However, Margaret, wife of Sir William "the Hardy" Douglas is said to have been the daughter of the 12th Earl. However, her husband (Douglas) died in 1298.

Sir Gratney de Mar aka: 7th Earl of Mar d: Bef. 1305

Sir Donald de Mar aka: 6th Earl of Mar d: Aft. 25 Jul 1297 m Helen verch Llewellyn

William de Mar md. Elizabeth Comyn daughter of William Comyn Elizabeth Comyn d: 1267 md Sir William de Mar aka: 5th Earl of Mar d: Abt. 1281

William COMYN, Justiciary of Scotland; married (1) Sarah fitz Robert fitz Hugh, married (2) about 1210, Marjorie, Countess of Buchan. William died 1233. Md . Marjorie, Countess of Buchan; married about 1210, William COMYN. Marjorie died about 1242/1244, title. Sir William Comyn aka: 1st Earl of Buchan d: 1233 2nd Wife of [1] William Comyn md Marjorie aka: Countess of Buchan. Marjorie father Roger, Earl of Buchan; died about 1180/1185. father Fergus, Earl of Buchan; died about 1200/1211. William COMYN; died before 1140

Richard COMYN, Lord of Tynedale; married about 1145/1159 Hextilda. Richard died about 1176/1182. Hextilda ,married (1) about 1145/1159, Richard COMYN, Lord of Tynedale, married (2) Malcolm, Earl of Atholl. Richard Comyn d: Abt. 1179 md Hextilda Richard parents Huctred of Tynedale, married Bethoc. Bethoc, married Huctred of Tynedale.

The mysterious Llywelyn family. The more read about them the more confused you become.

The Genealogist* (Association for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy), vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-95. The children of Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth (c1173-1240)

Donald (6th Earl) was married to Helen, daughter of Llewelyn the Great, Prince of North Wales

Llywelyn 'the Great' ap Iorwerth, Prince of Gwynedd; born : Abt. 1173 in Dolyddelan, Wales d: 11 April 1240 in Aberconway Abbey, Carnarvonshire, Wales md Tangwystl verch Llwarch b: Abt. 1168 in of Rhos, Wales d: Bef. 1205 (1) Tangwystyl, married (2) in 1206 Joan. Llywelyn died 11 Apr 1240, buried at Conwy, Wales. Wife unknown. Llewelyn, his first known long term relationship was with a Welsh woman, Tangwystyl, whom he never married She bore him

Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth children

(1) Gruffudd, illegitimate son by Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch Gruffudd md 1st Senena ferch Caradog and 2nd Wife of Gruffudd ap Llewellyn md Rhanullt or 2nd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth: md Joan Plantagenet b: Abt. 1191 d: 02 February 1236/37 in Aber Palace, Carnarvon, Wales

2 Gwladys Dhu of Wales b: Abt. 1194 in of Gwynedd, Wales d: 1251 in Windsor, BRK, ENG md Reginald de Briouze b: Abt. 1171 in Bramber, SSX, ENG m: 1215 d: Bet. 05 May 1227 - 09 June 1228 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales and 2nd Husband of Gwladys Dhu of Wales md Ralph de Mortimer b: 1190 in of Wigmore, HEF, ENG m: 1230 d: 06 August 1246 in Wigmore, HRT, ENG (no one claim that she should be placed as daughter of Tangwystl, this possibility only being presented to counter a statement of her certain placement as Joan's daughter. I know of no evidence to specifically suggest that she was Tangwystl's vs. child of one of the other wives or mistresses.)

2 Gwenllian of Wales d: 1281 md William de Lacy

2 Angharad verch Llewelyn md Maelgwn Fychan d: 1257 (Maelgwn Ieuanc ap Maelgwn Hen (or Fawr)

2 Tegwared y Baiswen md Gwenllian ferch Ednyfed ap Cynwrig

2 Angharad verch Llywelyn md Philip ap Ivor

2 Daughter verch Llywelyn +William Caentwn

Llywelyn 'the Great' ap Iorwerth, Prince of Gwynedd was betrothed to, and apparently married a daughter of a "lord" or"prince" of the Isles. This woman had previously been betrothed to one ofLlewelyn's uncles, most probably Rhodri. Rhodri had been a close ally of Reginald, King of Man, who is the most likely candidate for the woman's father. The other most likely father would be another Reginald - Lord of the Isles and a descendant of Somerled. Ecclesiastical permission was necessary for this marriage and negotiations to obtain such went on from 1199 to about 1203. Apparently they were married by 1205.

Llewelyn's marriage to the daughter of the Isles had to be annulled because during the time that negotiations were going on he had apparently married a daughter of Hugh of Cyveiliog, Earl of Chester. Which daughter has never been established, It could possibly even be an otherwise unknown illegitimate daughter. (This is unclear. It is not a question of which daughter, as there appears to be general agreement that it was not one of the known daughters. Thus it is an otherwise unknown daughter of Hugh, the legitimacy of whom has been debated)

(2) Tegwared y Baiswen, illegitimate son by unknown woman

3. Margaret/ Margred verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1208 in Wales (North) d: 1268 .md 1st John de Breuse b: Abt. 1198 m: Abt. 1220 d: Abt. 02 November 1232 in Bramber, SUS, ENG and *2nd Husband of Margred verch Llewellyn: +Walter III de Clifford b: Abt. 1186 in ENG m: Abt. 1232 in SSX, ENG d: Abt. 23 December 1263 in Clifford

Margaret is the subject of heated debate. She has been suggested to be a daughter of the daughter of the Isles, of Earl Hugh's daughter, of Joan, and of one of Llewelyn's mistresses, either Tangwystl or an otherwise unknown mistress. Based purely on chronology, the daughter of the Isles seems the most likely. Margred m1. John de Braose m2. Walter de Clifford (This is not a valid conclusion. Purely on chronology, you cannot eliminate any of the mistresses, known or particularly unknown. A chronological argument only works in concert with a legitimacy argument, thereby limiting the choices to the daughter of Hugh, the daughter of the Isles, or Joan. Purely on the basis of chronology, you can only eliminate candidates for whom there is known chronology (such as Joan), but not those for whom this is not known (such as Tangwystl or the hypothetical 'other mistresses').

Back to Llewelyn SR:

On the heels of the tumult regarding the Isles and Chester ladies, Llewelyn had the good fortune to be offered the hand of Joan, the daughter of King John. As Joan was a much more favorable match than either of the others, Llewelyn married Joan in 1206. Although Margaret has just the slimmest chance of being Joan's daughter, we are almost certain of two of Joan's offspring:

(3) Dafydd, legitimate son by Joan of England/ Dafydd ap Llywelyn b: Abt. 1208 d: 12 February 1245/46 in Aber md Concubine *2nd Wife of Dafydd ap Llywelyn md Isabel de Braose b: Abt. 1215 m: Abt. 10 August 1230 d: Bef. 1248 and 3rd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth md Unknown

5. Helen, who married John "the Scot" Earl of Chester and Robert de Quincy. Or Elen m1. John, Earl of Chester m2. Robert de Quincy 2 Elen verch Llywelyn b: in Gwynedd, Wales d: Bef. 24 October 1253 and md John of Scotland b: 1207 m: 1222 d: Abt. 06 June 1237 and md 2nd Husband of Elen verch Llywelyn md Robert de Quincey b: Abt. 1176 m: Aft. 06 June 1237 d: Abt. 1257

The daughter of an unknown mistress:

(9) Gwenllian Las m. William de Lacy Gwenellian who married a member of the de Lacy family (11) Elen Helen ferch Llywelyn of Wales,m1. Malcolm, Earl of Fife m2. Donald, Earl of Mar Helen who m. Donald, Earl of Mar? Helen dau. of Llewelyn, Prince of No. Wales. Reigned (1194-1240) Helen was the illegitimate daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd ap Llywelyn Mawr (d.1282) prince of North Wales. Or Helen verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1234 in of Wales md Malcolm MacDuff b: Bef. 1228 d: 1266 and 2nd Husband of Helen verch Llewellyn md Donald de Mar d: Aft. 25 July 1297 Wallop family says she was widow of Malcolm, Earl of Fife. G.E.C. calls this Helen dau. of Llewelyn, Prince of No. Wales. (Wallop family says she was widow of Malcolm, Earl of Fife.) She was known as Orabel de Leuchars, Countess of Mar (It is interesting that Orabel was noted as Countess of Mar. Helen verch Llewelyn married first Donald, Earl of Mar then Malcolm MacDuff, Earl of Fife) Helen's marriage to Mar was her second. Her first marriage was to Malcolm Macduff (d.1266) earl of Fife (1228-66) [CP V:373; VIII:403]. In the latter reference CP says that Helen was the daughter of Llywelyn prince of North Wales and cites Fordun as its source Helen's son by Malcolm of Fife (and Malcolm's heir), Colban, was a minor in 1266 but had been knighted in 1264 by Alexander III. This might suggest that Colban was about 18 years old (max.) in 1264. It would seem unlikely that he would receive knighthood before he was 15/16 yrs, but he may have been younger. On this basis he would have been born about 1246/50. This would put Helen's birth at about 1230/34 or earlier. This would seem to rule out Llywelyn (d.1282) as her father. If Helen is a daughter of Llywelyn (d.1240) then it could not have been by Tangwystl who as Llywelyn's first wife would have died presumably before 1205. However, Helen may (must?) have been his daughter by someone other than his current wife, Joan. Her mother is UNKNOWN

This line brings up some chronological problems in the early generations.

1) Elen or Helen, daughter of Llywelyn and reported wife of Donald, Earl of Mar, could not have been the daughter of Tangwystl.

Showed Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, eldest identified son of Llywelyn by Tangwystl, as being born say 1196. There are notes that : the Elen in question would have her born ca. 1234 (and obviously, no later than 1240/41). The odds of Tangwystl or any other spouse or mistress of Llywelyn producing children over a range of 28 years would be a stretch; 38 years is a good indicator that another individual was the mother of Elen. This of course assumes that Elen was actually born say 1230 or later.

2) How 'solid' is the reflection of Elen ferch Llywelyn (A) being the wife of Donald, Earl of Mar, and (B) being the mother of Isabel of Mar, wife of Robert _the_ Bruce, let alone any other child of Donald ?

Robert _the_ Bruce was born, prob. in Carrick [not at Writtle, Essex as in some sources] in 1274; it is safe to say his wife Isabel would have been born near or after that date. Her brother Gratney, later Earl of Mar, being born ca. 1270.

While not impossible, it is somewhat suspect that the mother of these two, including the heir of Donald, Earl of Mar, would be born ca. 1234. With a birth date of ca. 1270 for Gratney.

Elen ferch Llywelyn was not the daughter of Tangwystl, the question as to her paternity (outside of accepting or rejecting Fordun's report on the subject) would seem to be unresolved.

Colban mac Malcolm mac Duff, son of Elen by her first husband [Malcolm], was probably born ca. 1250 and possibly even before. Colban was knighted in 1264, and ' was still a minor when his father died in 1266 ' . This may not impossible, but the time gap between Colban being born (surely no later than 1250 ?) and the children of Donald, Earl of Mar being born from ca. 1272 (Gratney, later Earl of Mar) onward seems in need of other explanation.

That Gratney's mother was probably named Elen or Elena is reasonable - he himself had a daughter Elen, who married Sir John de Mentieth (1) and provided a line of descent which gave Sir John de Mentieth and Elen of Mar's g-grandson Robert Erskine, Lord Erskine (d. before 6 Nov 1452) a claim to the Earldom of Mar.

Pending an eventual rendering of the text from Fordun [while realizing by itself that this may well not solve the question], three other solutions present themselves:

1. Elen ferch Llywelyn was actually the daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, _last_ Prince of Wales and grandson of Llywelyn Fawr.

2. Elen, wife of Donald, Earl of Mar was in fact Elen, but not Elen ferch Llywelyn. This would obviously mean a significant misidentification by Fordun or his earlier sources.

3. Elen, wife of Donald, was not the widow of Malcolm of Fife, but rather the daughter of Malcolm and of Elen ferch Llywelyn. This latter solution would present a nicer fit with the chronology as we have it - Elen the daughter would then be born say 1250-1255, married to Donald, Earl of Mar say 1270, with issue starting say 1272 (Gratney). The only gap in this solution at present is any evidence supporting the suggestion, in Fordun or elsewhere. Pending additional review of relevant sources including Fordun, I would tend to go with the observation of MacEwen (cited earlier by Brice Clagett) that the identification of Elen, wife of Donald of Mar with Elen ferch Llywelyn is problematic, and requiring further substantive evidence.

Elen or Helen Llywelyn children

1 Isabel de Mar, Bef 1302 ref: (252-30) md Robert I de Bruce, 1274 - 1329.

2 Gratney de Mar, 7th Earl of Mar, - Bef 1305, and in 1447 md Christian de Bruce, - Abt 1357

3 Marjery de Mar, md John de Strathbogie, 9th Earl of Atholl - 1306,

CP V p 373 shows Malcom Earl of Fife married to Helen da of Llywelyn Prince of Wales. He died 1266. His widow married Donald Earl of Mar who died about 1292. She was alive in 1291.

CP VIII pps 402-403 says Donald Earl of Mar was married to Helen da of Llywelyn Prince of North Wales. He died aft 25 Jul 1297. She was alive Feb 1294/5

SP V p 578 says Donald Earl of Mar married Helen da of Llywelyn Prince of Wales and had five children.

CP XIV p. 323 says for Vol 5 p.373, line 19: "delete from ;about' to '1291' and replace by 'probably soon after 25 July 1297. She was living in Feb 1294/5 3b. Elen, wife of Donald, was not the widow of Malcolm of Fife, but rather the daughter of Malcolm and some other daughter of LLywelyn, perhaps one by Joan of England (Susanna?). Any daughter of Llywelyn Fawr would have been 31 or older in 1272. This is rather old for first marriage or children. It was reported by Mr. McEwen that perhaps the first fife of Malcolm was perhaps a daughter of Joan (of England) named Susanna. She would have to have been born before 1237.

There is a fourth possibility

4. Malcolm had TWO wives who were daughters of Llywelyn, one perhaps the legitimate Susanna, one a younger daughter, illegitimate. I am no expert on this, but how odd would this be? Certainly in a later time period (1600s) I have an ancestor who married two sisters in succession. Of course, the late age at which this latter daughter began bearing children for the Earl of Mar would suggest that, were it true, she probably had an earlier husband.

Llywelyn Fawr's daughters, i.e., that most if not all of his daughters were also daughters of his wife Joan, daughter of King John of England, is unsupported and that the mother of these daughters must be shown as "unknown". Later, in the same periodical, vol. 4, no. 2 (Fall 1983), pp. 137-138, Andrew B. W. MacEwen proved that the daughter Elen who married the Earl of Chester and later Robert de Quincy was a daughter of Joan

Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd married Margred ferch Madog. Iorwerth died about 1174, Pennant Mehangell, Wales.

Owain Gwynedd, Prince of Gwynedd; married Gwladus ferch Llywarch. Owain died Dec 1169, buried at Bangor, Wales.

Madog ap Maredudd, Prince of Powys; married Susanna ferch Gruffydd. Madog died 1160, Winchester, England, buried at Meifod yn Powys, Wales. Had . Gylocher.

Gruffydd ap Cynan, Prince of Gwynedd; born 1055, Dublin, Ireland, married Angharad ferch Owain. Gruffydd died 1137, buried at Bangor Cathedral, Wales.

.Llywarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Arwystli, Lord of Pembroke. Llywarch died 1128.

Maredudd ap Bleddyn, Prince of Powys; married Hunydd ferch Einudd. Maredudd died 9 Feb 1132.

Gruffydd ap Cynan md Angharad ferch Owain

I found this information on Mid Archives site where they posted many messages discussions all the different. I have try to post what was there in order for others to read more clearly. As for References to all the facts there was just to many to posted. I will post just a few

(References:

= Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.

BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].

BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].

BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].

F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].

W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed)

After reading Douglas Richardson's list of colonial immigrants descended from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, I was wondering if the following line can be confirmed:

1. Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales (1173-1240), and Tangwystl.

2. Helen of Wales (d. aft1295) and Donald, 10th Earl of Mar.

3. Isabel of Mar (c1276-c1302) and Robert I, King of Scots.

4. Margery Bruce (c1296-1315/6) and Walter, 6th High Steward.

5. Robert II, King of Scots (1315/6-1390), and Elizabeth Mure of Rowallan.

6. Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany (c1340-1420), and Margaret Grahame, Countess of Menteith.

7. Marjory Stewart (1372-bef1432) and Duncan Campbell of Lochow.

8. Archibald/Gillespic/Celestin Campbell (1393-bef1440) and Elizabeth Sommerville.

9. Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll (d. 1493), and Isabel Stewart of Lorn.

10. Archibald Campbell, 2nd Earl of Argyll (c1466-1513), and Elizabeth Stewart.

11. Donald Campbell, Abbot of Coupar (1492-1562), and Margaret Gordon???.

12. Nicholas (Nicol) Campbell of Keithock (1517-1587) and Katherine Drummond of Blair.

13. Margaret Campbell (c1571-1631) and Alexander MacGregor

14. Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) of Calvert County, Maryland.

Lines 1-3 can be found in "Ancestral Roots, 7th Edition" by Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. and David Faris on page 224, line 252. It lists Isabel of Mar as daughter of Donald, 6th Earl of Mar. A write up I have on Mar which used three references (Cokayne: "Complete Peerage", Vol. vii, p. 390, Vol. viii, p. 398; Weis: "Magna Charta", p. 5; Paul: "Scot's Peerage", Vol. v, p. 566-89) lists Donald as the 10th Earl of Mar. Was he the 6th or the 10th Earl of Mar?

Email me

Janet at monkey1946@centurylink.net