1. WILLIAM de SAI
m. AGNES, d. of Hugh de Grandmesnil
Issue-
2I. JORDAN- m. LUCY de RUMILLY, d. before 1161
Ref:
Domesday Descendants- K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Boydell Press, 2002- pp. 675, 680-1
m. LUCY de RUMILLY
d. before 1161
Church of the Annunciation to the Blessed Virgin Mary- Souldern, Oxfordshire
Jordan was the lord of Aunay-sur-Oldon, Calvados, Vire and was most likely the son of William de Sai and Agnes (as per Keats-Rohan). The church of Souldern, Oxford was given before 1161 to Eynsham Abbey by Jordan de Say to commemorate the burial of his son William in the Abbey. This gift was confirmed by Archbishop Theobald (d. 1161) and several times later.(>1) This conflicts with other information concerning William that he was buried at Walden Abbey in Essex, however, no primary source has been found for this statement. William's wife Beatrix was buried at Walden, however, the "Fundationis Historia" doesn't say anything about William, so, perhaps he was buried in Oxfordshire?(2) I suspect this William is being confused with his son William who was associated with Walden Abbey.
Issue-
Ref:
(1) Eynsham Chartulary- Vol. I, pp. 45, 57, 118
(2) Dugdale's Monasticon IV- Walden Abbey, Essex- I, p. 140
Early Yorkshire Charters- C.T. Clay, Ed.- Vol. VII, pp. 31-3
Domesday Descendants- K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Boydell Press, 2002- pp. 675, 680-1
m. BEATRICE MANDEVILLE (m.1. Hugh Talbot (divorced), d. 19 Apr. 1197 Rickling, Essex, bur. Walden Abbey)
d.c.1155
Professor Lethbridge Excavating Burwell Castle- 1935
The Empress Matilda made various grants by a charter dated c.1141 including a grant of lands to William de Say which were his father's.(1) William fought with Geoffrey de Mandeville at the siege of Burwell Castle in Aug. 1144.(2) Beatrix was the heir to her nephew William de Mandeville, Earl of Essex. Her son Geoffrey was allowed to take her place in view of her age.(3)
Issue-
Ref:
(1) Geoffrey de Mandeville, A Study of the Anarchy- J.H. Round, London, 1892- p. 169
(2) Chronicon Rameseiensis- Appendix II, "Nomina Abbatum Ramesiae"- p. 347; from Cotton MSS- Vesp. A, xviii
(3) The Complete Peerage- Vol. V, pp. 120-1
(4) See discussion at "Notes on Medieval English Genealogy" at: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/say.shtml
The Complete Peerage- St. Catherine Press, London- Vol. V, pp. 120-2; XI, p. 464ff
Domesday Descendants- K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Boydell Press, 2002- p. 681
d. before 1 Aug. 1177
William lived in Kimbolton, Huntingdonshire and Saham Toney, Norfolk. The history of the foundation of Walden Abbey names William de Say and Geoffrey, his brother as the two sons of Beatrix de Mandeville, Lady de Say and Beatrix and Matilda as daughters of William adding that Beatrix married Geoffrey FitzPiers and Matilda married William de Bocland.(1) The "Chronicon Rameseiensis" lists the donations made by William de Say and his mother Beatrix.(2) The Red Book of the Exchequer lists William de Say in Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire in 1161.(3)
Issue-
Ref:
(1) Dugdale's Monasticon IV- Walden Abbey, Essex- I, "Fundationis Historia", p. 139
(2) Chronicon Abbatiea Rameseiensis- W.D. Macray, Ed., London, 1886- 378, p. 303
(3) The Red Book of the Exchequer- H. Hall, Ed., London, 1896- Part I, Knights Fees, p. 35
The Complete Peerage- St. Catherine Press, London- Vol. V, pp. 123-4; VI, pp. 458-9; XI, p. 464ff
Domesday Descendants- K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Boydell Press, 2002- p. 681
m. ADELAIS
d. after 1086
Clun Castle
A charter from 1060 lists the transactions of Robert de Say, surnamed Picot and Adelais his wife and Robert and Henry his sons, with the monastery of St. Martin de Sees in Normandy.(1) He witnessed a charter from William the Conqueror confirming the rights of Ely Abbey and another in which King William confirmed the customs of Ely monastery.(2) The Domesday Book lists 27 manors in Shropshire held by Robert including Clun.(3) On 17 May 1086 in the court of Robert de Belleme is an agreement between "Picot de Saio" and Droco de Coimis concerning the dower which Droco's brother William had given to Adeloia his wife, who had remarried to Picot de Saio.(4) Robert was Sheriff of Cambridgeshire and was described as "a hungry lion, a prowling wolf, a crafty fox, a filthy swine, a dog without shame, who stuffed his belly like an insatiable beast as though the whole country were a single corpse." (4) Ouch.
Issue-
Ref:
(1) Gallia Christiana- Vol. XI, pp. 152-3
(2) Liber Eliensis- Vol. I, II, 117, p. 252; Dugdale's Monasticon I- Ely Monastery, Cambridgeshire- X, p. 477
(3) Antiquities of Shropshire- R.W. Eyton, London, 1860- Vol. XI, p. 227
(4) The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families- Lewis C. Loyd, 1999- p. 96
d.c.1160
Domesday Descendants states that Elias was the brother and successor of Henry de Say. Eyton, on the other hand, suggests that Elias was a son of Henry, however, he doesn't cite any source. Keats-Rohan cites a charter in the Shrewsbury Cartulary as evidence for her theory.(1) However, given the dates involved I suspect that Eyton is correct, unless Elias lived to a very old age and had his children when he was older or his father was old when he was born. Robert and his sons were mentioned in 1060, however, Elias died 100 years later. Given the approximate date of birth for Isabel it would put Elias' birth probably just before the turn of the century.
The Lordship of Clun, Shropshire belonged to Ellis de Say during the reign of King Stephen (1135-54). Clun passed by his daughter and heir Isabel to William FitzAlan, Lord of Oswaldestre and then to their son John.
Issue-
Ref:
(1) Domesday Descendants- K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Boydell Press, 2002- p. 679