Subject: Re: GROSSER's ...Updated! !!!!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:18:18 +1100
From: [email protected]
To: cadre <[email protected]>Hi Richard,
Now you have me thinking that the translation of Emanuel Klar's german could be wrong. I may have read Grosser instead of Grocke for the child that died. Please let me review my notes, before you publish anything to your web page.
You also have me worried about Klar's 4 children? and wife? His wife survived him and only two children were lost at sea, but he had lost another child before the trip.
I will get someone to translate the German again over the Christmas break.
Stay in touch.
Debra
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Subject: Das GROSSER Problem! Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:09:28 +1300
From: cadre <[email protected]> Organization: CADRE
To: [email protected]Hi Deb,
Hey ..no problem, ' nothing like some controversy! :-)
It'll shake the rellies ...up!
My GROSSER FAMILY HISTORY, by Roy Grosser confirms that, Maria Louisa GROCKE died on June 11th 1841, but that both Johann Gotthard Ernst GROCKE (no date given) & Maria Salome GROSSER, were the two births on the Skjold. RE your translations, note, Grosser can be written, and would have been originally transcribed with a sharfass 'S' which looks like 'ß', thus the name becomes Großer, OR as Albert himsef wrote it in his letter to the Governor, 16th October 1843, ...Gros†er. Don't know, if this is ...any help?
Re the KLAR's ...where did I read this ...erk! Sorry! Of the 52 or 55 burials during the voyage, there is some contention in the records, as the Church Register at Lobethel, which was kept by Pastor Fritzsche, only lists 45 deaths, of which 5 were prior to the voyage. I know Mrs A. Hensel, Mrs Staude and Mrs Reich, all died at sea.
I can confirm that:
* Gottfried Emanuel Klar joined the party on the barges on the Elbe in Hamburg on May 22, 1841, at 7 in the evening. (paraphrased [extract from] Rev. Brauer, A. D.D. (?) "Under the Southern Cross")* Johanne Pauline KLAR died (aged 2 yrs) on Oct 12th, 1841.
* Johanne Ernest WEINERT, died (aged 2 1/2 yrs) on August 28th, 1841.
As to the details I read re the KLAR family ...I shall confirm when I grasp them ...again!
Err... I'm sorry, it appears that I got the KLAR's and the ROEHR's mixed-up, as Wilhelm (from Tirschtiegel) lost his four children at sea. (paraphrased [extract from] Rev. Brauer, A. D.D. (?) "Under the Southern Cross") I had presumed that he had lost his wife, too, as Dorothea was listed as being 32 yrs of age, but she appears by the records, to have been his daughter.
Hoping that this finds you,
in Good Health,
Best Wishes,Richard
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Subject: Re: Das GROSSER Problem!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:41:11 +1100
From: Debra Dienelt <[email protected]>
To: cadre <[email protected]>Hi Richard,
Let's try again.
Emanuel started writing the letter in Hamburg 1841 to his brother Christian Klar.
The Lutheran Church's translation is:-
"My Dearly Beloved Brother Christina Klar. As soon as this letter reaches you, we shall no longer be in this country but swimming on the wild waves of the ocean. .... When I commenced writing these letters on 28 Jan 4a.m. there was before my eyes not only the wild ocean with its terrible waves, but also the difficult farewell from my loved ones and what lies much more heavily probably 100 times heavier before my eyes, my young son Traugott Klar in the becoveathed and beautifully decorated coffin. That is the first sacrifice of the emigration which I must make to my God. Could you but see how my heart is saddened, you would outdo me in tears.... I know that tears will certianly flow when my people read my letter as with me .. are my cheeks, as I write this. But what God wills that is done well. This afternoon at 2 p.m. it will be taken on the ? to St. Michaels Cemetery.. his fellow citizens also in Hamburg at the comforting resurrection, the resurrection of the body also will have part as my eldest child Gottlob in Blankefeld and my dear father in Prittag.
Emanuel Klar Hamburg 1841 to his brother Christian Klar. "
The Lutheran's Church translation of the passage I sent you.
"26th we pass St Helena, It lies to our left. Here a son was born to Br. Groten of Zullichau. 27th Good wind. 28th Calm. In view of the Martin-Vos-Rocks near the island of Trinidad which is unihabited the child of Br Grossern died. Also a child is born to Br Grosser which was baptised on the 29th. Today we saw a dead whale .... etc. 30th August. A week wind. "
The following is typed from the original letters, by Hann Prochno (nee Klar) of Germany. Only her husband speaks English and they are both in their 70s.
"26. paBiren wir St. Helena. sie leigt uns links Hir wurde Br. Groten aus Zullichau ein Sohnlein geborhren. 27. guter Wind 28. Windstille. Im Angesicht die Martin-Vos-Rocks neben der Insel Trinitat, die unbewohnt ist. es starb dem Br. August Weinert aus B .... Holland sein Kind, auch wird Br. Grossern ein Kind gebohren, die den 29. getauft wurden beide. Heut sahen wir einen todten Wallfisch der Herr Captan fuhr mit einen Boot hin, die Haifische (?) zehren von ihm, viel Seevogel wurden geschoBen, die so groB als ein Gans waren. 30. August schwacher Wind."
As these letter were very old and some of the writting was hard to read in the folds, not all of the letter was readable.
As you can see both the names Groten and Grossern were taken as Grosser. And the Lutheran Archives actually missed a line excluding the name of Br. August Weinert which I take was the child lost. Oops, perhaps you can set us right.
There were also passengers names Grossmann ,just to make things harder.
I'm sorry if I have upset the apple cart! Emanuel metioned later in his letter of 1844 that the main reason for the deaths on the ship was the lack of fresh water.
Have you got a copy of the book "Because of their Beliefs" by W Iwan edited by David Schubert? It may be worth looking up in the Library for.
Regards
Debra------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Die Ubersetzung Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:00:14 +1300
From: cadre <[email protected]> Organization: CADRE
To: Debra Dienelt <[email protected]>Hi Debra,
Here's my best DRAFT, of a translation of the typed German transcript, with some embellishments, that I know are accurate and others speculative:
"26th, we pass St Helena, it lies to our left. Here a son was born (Johann Gotthard Ernst GROCKE [d. September 29th, 1841 (1 month 4days)]) to Brother GROCKE (Johann Luis & Anna Elisabeth [d. September 21st, 1841 (37 yrs)]) of Zuellichau.
27th, Good wind.
28th, Calm. In view of the Martin-Vas Island across from the island of Tristan de Cunha, which is uninhabited, the child of Brother August WEINERT, from B[rabant], Holland, died (Johann Ernestine WEINERT [d. August 28th (2 1/2 yrs)]).
Also, the child born to Brother GROCKE, was on the 29th, baptised. Today we saw a dead whale, to which the Captain rowed over, in a boat. Although, the sharks had eaten very much of [the carcass], many seabirds were upon it, that were as big as geese.
30th August, a weak wind."
I trust that this translation, which confirms the registered personnel records, matching the quoted dates, as well as the charted maritime course, will have your ancestors, ...blessings?
The island of Trinidad (and Tobago), are at the north of South America, and are 'nowhere near' the mid-Atlantic, which is where Martin-Vas island is located.
Based on a south-easterly course, Martin-Vas island would be seen on the starbord-side (RHS) just after sailing past St. Helena, seen to port (LHS). So I hope that my suggestion of Tristan de Cunha, is not too 'inflammtory' as it sounds phonetically ...like Trinidad. To be pedantic, it 'fits the facts'.
'Trust that this gives you all, some food for thought? Your comments, would be appreciated.
I'm trying not to be too liberal, with the truth.
Kind Regards & Many Thanks for your Efforts,
Richard