This thread:

This thread:

§ crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by Nathaniel Taylor
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by Tim Powys-Lybbe
§ Re: crusaders by "Derek Howard"
§ Re: crusaders by Tim Powys-Lybbe
§ Re: crusaders by "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by Nathaniel Taylor
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ re: Turcott; was re: crusaders by Nathaniel Taylor
§ re: Turcott; was re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
§ Re: crusaders by "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
§ Re: crusaders by "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
§ Re: crusaders by Denis Beauregard
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by Nathaniel Taylor
§ Re: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by Nathaniel Taylor
§ Re: crusaders by Denis Beauregard
§ Re: crusaders by Denis Beauregard
§ RE: crusaders by "Tompkins, M.L."
§ RE: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
§ Re: crusaders by ""
§ RE: crusaders by "Tompkins, M.L."
§ RE: crusaders by "Bob Turcott"
turcault turcault turcault turcault turcault turcault turcault turcault

This thread:

GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2006-01

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:57:43 +0000

To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some time. I have read a few heraldic books that indicate the Turcott surname was applied to a crusader, as far as I know, there are quite a few origins and variations of the Turk, Turc & Leturc surname. I have known one researcher Tony Turk that has researched some variants of the turk surname and this is his website, but I think my origin may be different from the lines he is researching.

http://www.turkgenealogy.com/

However, is there someone out there that knows about crusaders and some surnames assocaited with them, below is one paper about one possible origin. I read one book authored by johnathan riley smith about crusaders but really could not find any such referance to the turcott surname, but found some referance to turks, but I still dont think that a Turcott originating out of france would be of such turkish root.

The Turcott Surname in France

Turcott of french surnames, it has been said that they came into existance around the year 1000 and were mostly confined to the nobility. The employment of surnames in England in the eleventh century was one of the results of the Norman (French) conquest of 1066 which was carried out under William the Conquerer.

The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.

The crusades (from Latin "crux" meaning "Cross") were a series of religious wars waged by the cristian nations of Europe during the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries for the recovery of the holy land from the Moslems.

This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during the third crusade (1187-1192). In fact, the earliest written record of this surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.

In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls" of Sussex in 1296.

Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS:

Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band argent.
Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this surname. Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and denotes Purity and Obedience.

Crest: The head of the turk.

Origin: France

Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb 1993 Registration no#10439

 

 

 

 

From: Nathaniel Taylor
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:27:42 GMT

In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

<...>

> The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive
> of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the name is a
> nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a
> turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the surname
> Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.

<...>

> This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during the third crusade (1187-1192). In
> fact, the earliest written record of this surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is
> recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.

> In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in
> the "subsidy rolls" of Sussex in 1296.

I would be hesitant to accept this derivation of your surname. 'Turcott' as such does not appear in P. H. Reaney's authoritative _Dictionary of English Surnames_, but the second element of the name suggests that it is not a nickname, originally, but a place-name, in English, with '-cot' or '-cote' being a cottage or dwelling (as in the surname 'Prescott', etc.). The vowel in the first element may have shifted, and it is possible that it derives from some element 'ter-', 'tur-', or 'tor-', that may have nothing to do with the documented epithet 'Turk'. Reaney notes that 'Turk' itself is of disputed origins: he reports that NED just assigns the word continental (i.e. French) origins, coming into England as a nickname around the time of the third crusade, but Reaney says that it is found in London a half century earlier. And there are some documented instances of it as a well before the crusades: e.g. the 'Turch' in Cambridgeshire Domesday Book (1080s), which Reaney reports another author explaining as a hypochoristic pet form of the Scandinavian Germanic name 'Thorkel'. Reaney does admit that most of the documented surnames (burgeoning in the 13th c.) of the form 'le Turk' or 'fitz Turk', etc., were probably derived from the continental import. But at any rate, I would doubt that the later surname 'Turcott' necessarily has any relation to earlier instances of 'Turk', whether the latter derives from a continental or Germanic name.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:37:57 +0000

>In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

<...>

>> The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is,
>> descriptive of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the
>> name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus"
>> meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the
>> surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.

<...>

>> This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during the third crusade (1187-1192). In
>> fact, the earliest written record of this surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is
>> recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.

>> In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned
>> in the "subsidy rolls" of Sussex in 1296.

>I would be hesitant to accept this derivation of your surname. 'Turcott' as such does not appear in P. H. Reaney's
> authoritative _Dictionary of English Surnames_, but the second element of the name suggests that it is not a
> nickname, originally, but a place-name, in English, with '-cot' or '-cote' being a cottage or dwelling (as in the
> surname 'Prescott', etc.). The vowel in the first element may have shifted, and it is possible that it derives from
> some element 'ter-', 'tur-', or 'tor-', that may have nothing to do with the documented epithet 'Turk'. Reaney notes
> that 'Turk' itself is of disputed origins: he reports that NED just assigns the word continental (i.e. French) origins,
> coming into England as a nickname around the time of the third crusade, but Reaney says that it is found in
> London a half century earlier. And there are some documented instances of it as a well before the crusades: e.g.
> the 'Turch' in Cambridgeshire Domesday Book (1080s), which Reaney reports another author explaining as a
> hypochoristic pet form of the Scandinavian Germanic name 'Thorkel'. Reaney does admit that most of the
> documented surnames (burgeoning in the 13th c.) of the form 'le Turk' or 'fitz Turk', etc., were probably derived
> from the continental import. But at any rate, I would doubt that the later surname 'Turcott' necessarily has any
> relation to earlier instances of 'Turk', whether the latter derives from a continental or Germanic name.

I am very hesitant for sure!!! perhaps it could come from Turc but not Turk. possibly derived from Turc surname of france, but not Turk, The source of the certificate is perhaps not a very good one and to many discrepancies in the cert as identified by others in this forum. However, I will find the heraldic book and post it here and see if everyone thinks the book may be in error as well.

>Nat Taylor

>a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
>my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: Tim Powys-Lybbe
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:37:43 GMT

In message of 26 Jan, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

> To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some time. I have read a few heraldic books that
> indicate the Turcott surname was applied to a crusader, as far as I know, there are quite a few origins and
> variations of the Turk, Turc & Leturc surname.

<snip>

> In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in
> the "subsidy rolls" of Sussex in 1296.

> Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS:

> Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band argent.
> Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this surname.

Hardly pun but "canting arms" is the more usual description.

Anyhow the only relevant arms in Burke's compendiums "Armory" of 1844 and general Armory" of 1884 are those for a Turke of London of the time of Ed3ward III and are:

Argent on a bend azure between two lions rampant gules three bezants.

The much newer "Medieval Ordinary of British Arms" has these arms for various Turks:

(Vol 3, p. 68 for various Mons and Sir Robert Turks) variations on: On bend sinople between 2 lions 3 roundels

(Vol 2, p. 221 for The Great Turk who slew the emperor of Constantinople); Per fess or and gules the base representing town wall masoned with loopholes & gateway sable doors open & turned back or wall ensigned with three turrets gules.

(vol 2, p. 412 for a William Turk, alderman and fishmonger who d. 1532) Chevron between 3 lion's heads erased or on a chief or a griffin passant or.

Volumes 3 and 4 have yet to be published.

> Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White,
> symbolizes the moon and denotes Purity and Obedience.

These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post medieval times to humour people with not much else to do. The core of heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a tournament on the apparel and armour.

> Crest: The head of the turk.

These crests of a "soldan" are very common for a wide range of families in middle medieval times. They are not unique designs. (See Hope St John's "Stall Plates of the Knights of the Order of the Garter 1348-1485", though it is a rare book.)

> Origin: France

> Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb 1993 Registration no#10439

I have no idea on what basis this firm told you about these arms. As you can see there are several different arms for different people named Turk. In fact, of course, arms belong to particular families not to names and they should have enquired what families you were descended from. But, regrettably there are too many dealers who are more eager to collect your money than to do a proper job.

Heraldry is bound up with genealogy. If you don't know the genealogy of a family, you cannot say anything about their heraldry. Might I recommend you have a look at the FAQ of the rec.heraldry newsgroup at:

http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq
Tim Powys-Lybbe

 

 

 

 

From: "Derek Howard"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: 28 Jan 2006 03:34:50 -0800

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

> In message of 26 Jan, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

<snip>

>> Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White,
>> symbolizes the moon and denotes Purity and Obedience.

> These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post medieval times to humour people with
> not much else to do. The core of heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily
> recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a tournament on the apparel and armour.

Just a little pedantry is perhaps in order here though off the topic of the thread. The attribution of virtues to colours and association with planets goes back at least to the herald Sicille in the early 15th century whose work was recycled throughout the 15th century. Sicille was an officer of the King of Sicily and marshal of arms of Hainault, not a theoretician or amateur. His text quotes extensively from biblical and classic literature and does not read as if he had just invented them, there was probably at least a generation of such thinking before him. In the 15th century the grant of arms to Eton college by Henry VI in person shows that the meanings of colours were in current and explicit use. Chivalraic thinking around tournaments certainly included a considerable amount of such symbolism. How far back we can trace such thinking is another matter. Shortage of data hampers analysis of the earlier 13-14th centuries.

Derek Howard

 

 

 

 

From: Tim Powys-Lybbe
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:22:03 GMT

In message of 28 Jan, "Derek Howard" <> wrote:
> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
>> In message of 26 Jan, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

<snip>

>>> Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or
>>> White, symbolizes the moon and denotes Purity and Obedience.

>> These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post medieval times to humour people with
>> not much else to do. The core of heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily
>> recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a tournament on the apparel and armour.

> Just a little pedantry is perhaps in order here though off the topic of the thread. The attribution of virtues to colours
> and association with planets goes back at least to the herald Sicille in the early 15th century whose work was
> recycled throughout the 15th century. Sicille was an officer of the King of Sicily and marshal of arms of Hainault,
> not a theoretician or amateur. His text quotes extensively from biblical and classic literature and does not read as if
> he had just invented them, there was probably at least a generation of such thinking before him. In the 15th
> century the grant of arms to Eton college by Henry VI in person shows that the meanings of colours were in
> current and explicit use. Chivalraic thinking around tournaments certainly included a considerable amount of such
> symbolism. How far back we can trace such thinking is another matter. Shortage of data hampers analysis of the
> earlier 13-14th centuries.

Interesting. I was merely summarising a paragraph in the rec.heraldry FAQ:

"At various times in the history of heraldry -- mostly between the 16th and early 19th centuries, and mostly in England -- various authors tried to create systems of meaning for every charge and tincture in arms. Some of them went so far as to claim that their system had _always_ been in use, and therefore that the symbolism of ancient arms could be deduced from their charts. It was all bunk. Some heralds probably did design arms according to one or another of these systems -- which aren't consistent, by the way -- but we have no way of know, in general, when this was done."

Personally I agree with the statement that is was all bunk, though I would prefer 'pretentious rubbish'. Sounds like the FAQ needs updating.

--

Tim Powys-Lybbe

 

 

 

 

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:55:56 -0400

Dear Bob,

Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or, possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time and place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon. Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially; much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically) shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case for these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

Ford

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bob Turcott"
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:57 AM
Subject: crusaders

To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some time. I have read a few heraldic books that indicate the Turcott surname was applied to a crusader, as far as I know, there are quite a few origins and variations of the Turk, Turc & Leturc surname. I have known one researcher Tony Turk that has researched some variants of the turk surname and this is his website, but I think my origin may be different from the lines he is researching.

http://www.turkgenealogy.com/

However, is there someone out there that knows about crusaders and some surnames assocaited with them, below is one paper about one possible origin. I read one book authored by johnathan riley smith about crusaders but really could not find any such referance to the turcott surname, but found some referance to turks, but I still dont think that a Turcott originating out of france would be of such turkish root.

The Turcott Surname in France

Turcott of french surnames, it has been said that they came into existance around the year 1000 and were mostly confined to the nobility. The employment of surnames in England in the eleventh century was one of the results of the Norman (French) conquest of 1066 which was carried out under William the Conquerer.

The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.

The crusades (from Latin "crux" meaning "Cross") were a series of religious wars waged by the cristian nations of Europe during the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries for the recovery of the holy land from the Moslems.

This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during the third crusade (1187-1192). In fact, the earliest written record of this surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.

In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls" of Sussex in 1296.

Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS:

Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band argent.
Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this surname. Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and denotes Purity and Obedience.

Crest: The head of the turk.

Origin: France

Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb 1993 Registration no#10439

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:08:09 +0000

Ford,

see below

>From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>To: "Bob Turcott"
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:55:56 -0400

>Dear Bob,

> Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or, possibly, Danish), name, derived from
> Tor (Thor), which at such a time and place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.

> Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which you mentioned, the insertion of a
> 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially;
> much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically) shorten their names. However, the
> forenames William and Robert, (which you cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case
> for these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

>Ford

possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to be certain.

>----- Original Message -----

>From: "Bob Turcott"
>To: <>
>Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:57 AM
>Subject: crusaders

> To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some time. I have read a few heraldic books that
> indicate the Turcott surname was applied to a crusader, as far as I know, there are quite a few origins and
> variations of the Turk, Turc & Leturc surname. I have known one researcher Tony Turk that has researched some
> variants of the turk surname and this is his website, but I think my origin may be different from the lines he is
> researching.

> http://www.turkgenealogy.com/

> However, is there someone out there that knows about crusaders and some surnames assocaited with them, below
> is one paper about one possible origin. I read one book authored by johnathan riley smith about crusaders but
> really could not find any such referance to the turcott surname, but found some referance to turks, but I still don’t
> think that a Turcott originating out of france would be of such turkish root.

> The Turcott Surname in France

> Turcott of french surnames, it has been said that they came into existance around the year 1000 and were mostly
> confined to the nobility. The employment of surnames in England in the eleventh century was one of the results of
> the Norman (French) conquest of 1066 which was carried out under William the Conquerer.

> The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive
> of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the name is a
> nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a
> turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the surname
> Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.

> The crusades (from Latin "crux" meaning "Cross") were a series of religious wars waged by the cristian nations of
> Europe during the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries for the recovery of the holy land from the Moslems.

> This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during the third crusade (1187-1192). In
> fact, the earliest written record of this surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is
> recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.

> In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in
> the "subsidy rolls" of Sussex in 1296.

> Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS:

> Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band argent.
> Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this surname. Gules or red, symbolizes the planet
> mars and denotes Military Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and denotes
> Purity and Obedience.

> Crest: The head of the turk.

> Origin: France

> Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb 1993 Registration no#10439

 

 

 

 

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bob Turcott"
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to be
> certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:08:03 +0000

>From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>To:
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>----- Original Message -----

>From: "Bob Turcott"
>To: <>
>Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to be
>> certain.

> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
> similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

 

 

 

 

From: Nathaniel Taylor
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

>> From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Bob Turcott"
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to be
>>> certain.

>> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
>> similar to that.

> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on their formation and typology.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:53:10 +0000

> From: Nathaniel Taylor
> To:
> Subject: Re: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

>>> From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>>> ----- Original Message -----

>>> From: "Bob Turcott"
>>> To: <>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>>>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to
>>>> be certain.

>>> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
>>> similar to that.

>> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

>> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

> Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is
> a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already been
> suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive
> book on their formation and typology.

Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..

To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.

However, I will take a look at this english dictionary, hovever the consulatation of a French dictionary may also be in order here.

You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area, especially when we don't have all the sources specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at this time.

> Nat Taylor

> a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

> my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: Nathaniel Taylor
Subject: re: Turcott; was re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:02:37 GMT

In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>> From: Nathaniel Taylor
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

>> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>>>> From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>>>> To:
>>>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>>>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bob Turcott"
>>>> To: <>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>>>>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to
>>>>> be certain.

>>>> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
>>>> similar to that.

>>> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?

>>> Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

>>> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

>> Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There
>> is a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already been
>> suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive
>> book on their formation and typology.

> Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire.. To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature
> for me to buy at this time. However, I will take a look at this english dictionary...

> You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the same manner or sequence..So further
> study is needed in this area, especially when we don't have all the sources specified here for french origins, a
> decision clearly cannot be made at this time.

Well, I stand corrected. Ford, Matt and I were assuming the name was of middle English origin, which it certainly looked like. And we see so many queries here in which people have read implausible, bogus French origins assigned to perfectly ordinary English surnames, that we assumed that 'Turcott' (which *looks* English with the two 't's and without a final 'e'), belonged in the same category.

However, googling for a minute shows that Turcotte IS a French-Quebecois name, and the name's virtual absence in England supports a French origin. In France, it is true that the diminutive suffix '-ot' or '-otte' is a standard evolution path for French names.

One on-line French etymological name-dictionary ...

http://jeantosti.com/indexnoms.htm

... confirms the idea that 'Turcotte' comes from the feminine diminutive '-otte' , added to the epithet-name 'Turc' (or 'le Turc'). I don't know which of the various printed works one can find (e.g. the big dictionary / CD-ROM by Marie-Odile Mergnac, or Laurent Herz's, _Dictionnaire etymologique des noms de famille francais d'origine etrangere et regionale, etc.) has the best reputation for good etymology and data on early usage, but I would look into those works.

Now, how much is known of the precise geographic and social origins of the earliest documented Quebecois settlers bearing the surname? What's the best source in France that (like Reaney's dictionary for England) provides referenced examples of medieval or early-modern users of surnames? From booksellers' descriptions it looks as if Marie-Odile Mergnac's dictionary focuses on modern (19th-20th c.) distribution.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: re: Turcott; was re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:14:59 +0000


> From: Nathaniel Taylor
> To:
> Subject: re: Turcott; was re: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:02:37 GMT

> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>>> From: Nathaniel Taylor
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>>> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

>>> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>>>>> From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>>>>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Bob Turcott"
>>>>> To: <>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>>>>>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to
>>>>>> be certain.

>>>>> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
>>>>> similar to that.

>>>> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?

>>>> Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

>>>> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

>>> Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc.
>>> There is a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already
>>> been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more
>>> discursive book on their formation and typology.

>> Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..

>> To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.

>> However, I will take a look at this english dictionary...

>> You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the same manner or sequence..So further
>> study is needed in this area, especially when we don't have all the sources specified here for french origins, a
>> decision clearly cannot be made at this time.

> Well, I stand corrected. Ford, Matt and I were assuming the name was of middle English origin, which it certainly
> looked like. And we see so many queries here in which people have read implausible, bogus French origins
> assigned to perfectly ordinary English surnames, that we assumed that 'Turcott' (which *looks* English with the
> two 't's and without a final 'e'), belonged in the same category.

> However, googling for a minute shows that Turcotte IS a French-Quebecois name, and the name's virtual absence
> in England supports a French origin. In France, it is true that the diminutive suffix '-ot' or '-otte' is a standard
> evolution path for French names.

> One on-line French etymological name-dictionary ...

> http://jeantosti.com/indexnoms.htm

> ... confirms the idea that 'Turcotte' comes from the feminine diminutive '-otte' , added to the epithet-name 'Turc'
> (or 'le Turc'). I don't know which of the various printed works one can find (e.g. the big dictionary / CD-ROM by
> Marie-Odile Mergnac, or Laurent Herz's, _Dictionnaire etymologique des noms de famille francais d'origine
> etrangere et regionale, etc.) has the best reputation for good etymology and data on early usage, but I would look
> into those works.

> Now, how much is known of the precise geographic and social origins of the earliest documented Quebecois
> settlers bearing the surname? What's the best source in France that (like Reaney's dictionary for England) provides
> referenced examples of medieval or early-modern users of surnames? From booksellers' descriptions it looks as if
> Marie-Odile Mergnac's dictionary focuses on modern (19th-20th c.) distribution.

Matt, knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my ancestor.

TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vende. Dest: Qubec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone: Vende. Dest: Qubec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vende. Dest: Qubec.

TURCOT dit TURREAU, Franois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Dou-la-Fontaine (St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie

source my website http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~turcottelagace/lesturcottevol.htm

> Nat Taylor

> a genealogist's sketchbook: >http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

> my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:53:37 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott"
To: <>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders

>> From: Nathaniel Taylor
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

>> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>>>> From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>>>> To:
>>>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>>>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bob Turcott"
>>>> To: <>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>>>>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to
>>>>> be certain.

>>>> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
>>>> similar to that.

>>> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?

>>> Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

>>> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

>> Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There
>> is a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already been
>> suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive
>> book on their formation and typology.

> Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..

> To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.

It's been quite awhile since I've looked a map of France, (been concentrating on the Niolitic & Mesopotamian); but were not many Normans, (who would have perpetuated some Norse naming patterns), quite close to Maine, adjacent even?

Ford

 

 

 

 

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:48:36 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor"
To: <>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders

> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>>> From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bob Turcott"
>>> To: <>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: crusaders

<snip>

>>>> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need to do further study in this area to be
>>>> certain.

>>> Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch
>>> similar to that.

>> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?

Actually, the Thor for whom the 'cottage' would have been named need not have been the God Thor. Thor is still a not uncommon name and name particle in Scandinavia. The intrepid Heyerdahl comes to mind. Also, I attended university with a Swanson whose brother was named Torger. And there was Tor Johnson, the 'B' horror-movie actor, whose memorable lines included such gems as, 'You eat now!', and, 'Time for go to bed!'. Tor was a big man in the business. So big that he broke Ed Woods toilet just by sitting on it.

Today's installment from Ford's House of Trivia

>> Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

>> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

> Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is
> a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. As has already been
> suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's _Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive
> book on their formation and typology.

> Nat Taylor

> a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

> my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:39:15 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott"
To: <>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders

> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome back Mr cotter!!!

> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Thanks! I have a room-mate who likes to point out that I have a great sense of humour; I'm just not funny.

F

 

 

 

 

From: Denis Beauregard
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

> Dear Bob,

> Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or, possibly, Danish), name, derived from
> Tor (Thor), which at such a time and place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.

>Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de',
> or, less frequently, a 'le', became common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially;
> much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically) shorten their names. However, the
> forenames William and Robert, (which you cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case
> for these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

Non sense.

Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vendée) in 1610 and 1617, but records are missing 1618 to 1700.

There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same town.

In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.

See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendée), as other variations are less common.

Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les FranÃ&sect;ais d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:25:04 +0000
In-Reply-To: <75hkt1pfonqjcv1414l68ats0phrn27800@4ax.com>

> From: Denis Beauregard
> To:
> Subject: Re: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500

> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>> Dear Bob,

>> Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or, possibly, Danish), name, derived from
>> Tor (Thor), which at such a time and place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.

>> Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which you mentioned, the insertion of a
>> 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm
>> socially; much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically) shorten their names.
>> However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such
>> was not the case for these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

> Non sense.

> Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers on another post also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of eduacation or understanding of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city clerks have an imagination...

> TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vende) in 1610 and 1617, but records are missing 1618 to 1700.

> There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same town.

> In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless terminations. Root is definitely
> TURC or TURQUE. Since family names appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean at
> that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an
> expression in French means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.

> See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT
> (half are in Vende), as other variations are less common.

> Denis

> --
> 0 Denis Beauregard -
> /\/ Les FranÃ&sect;ais d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
> |\ French in North America before 1716 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
> / | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
> oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:02:49 +0000

Denis,

My apologies in this reply, see below.

> From: "Bob Turcott"
> To:
> Subject: Re: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:25:04 +0000

>> From: Denis Beauregard
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: crusaders
>> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500

>> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in
>> soc.genealogy.medieval:

>>> Dear Bob,

>>> Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or, possibly, Danish), name, derived from
>>> Tor (Thor), which at such a time and place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.

>>> Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which you mentioned, the insertion of a
>>> 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm
>>> socially; much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically) shorten their names.
>>> However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such
>>> was not the case for these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

>> Non sense.

>> Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example: TURCAULT or TURQUAULT
>> are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers on another post also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross
>> mispelling, because of eduacation or understanding of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did
>> not know how to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city clerks have an imagination...

>> TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vende) in 1610 and 1617, but records are missing 1618 to 1700.

>> There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same town.

You are correct one branch is indeed Turcault, it escaped my memory, then later changed to Turcot however further research in this area is needed, This may be a differant liniage from mine but further checking is needed..

>> In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless terminations. Root is definitely
>> TURC or TURQUE. Since family names appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean at
>> that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an
>> expression in French means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words. seems logical denis thanks, will
>> look into this.

>> See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp for distribution of the names. Try with
>> TURCOT (half are in Vende), as other variations are less common.

>> Denis

>> --
>> 0 Denis Beauregard -
>> /\/ Les FranÃ&sect;ais d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
>> |\ French in North America before 1716 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
>> / | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
>> oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

 

 

 

 

From: Nathaniel Taylor
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:23 GMT

In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>> From: Denis Beauregard

>> Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

> TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers on another post also the dit
> name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of eduacation or understanding of french names especially in
> the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
> clerks have an imagination...

>> See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp for distribution of the names. Try with
>> TURCOT (half are in Vendee), as other variations are less common.

Well, this distribution engine (thanks for citing it, Denis) DOES have 'Turquault', at least, as a spelling variant in and around the Vendee in the late 19th century, so it is not only the Quebecois who butcher the spelling that way (and of course only a French speaker would consider using that spelling for a name he hears that sounds like 'Turk-oh'). I would say 'Turcot' is the 'normative' spelling of this rather than the only 'proper' spelling.

The big concentration of 'Turcot' in the Vendee in the earliest period this applet uses (1890s - 1915) suggests that it may well be a surname with a single male ancestor in France--or that the 'Turc' nickname was only current in that region when the surname solidified.

Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late 19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:29:24 +0000

> From: Nathaniel Taylor
> To:
> Subject: Re: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:23 GMT

> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>>> From: Denis Beauregard

>>> Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

>> TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers on another post also the dit
>> name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of eduacation or understanding of french names especially in
>> the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how to write french names properly, especially the united states, even
>> city clerks have an imagination...

>>> See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp for distribution of the names. Try with
>>> TURCOT (half are in Vendee), as other variations are less common.

> Well, this distribution engine (thanks for citing it, Denis) DOES have 'Turquault', at least, as a spelling variant in
> and around the Vendee in the late 19th century, so it is not only the Quebecois who butcher the spelling that way
> (and of course only a French speaker would consider using that spelling for a name he hears that sounds like
> 'Turk-oh'). I would say 'Turcot' is the 'normative' spelling of this rather than the only 'proper' spelling.

> The big concentration of 'Turcot' in the Vendee in the earliest period this applet uses (1890s - 1915) suggests that
> it may well be a surname with a single male ancestor in France--or that the 'Turc' nickname was only current in
> that region when the surname solidified.

> Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've already seen of origins of specific emigres to
> Quebec) or distribution of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late 19th century? The IGI
> has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

Nat, knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my ancestor.

TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vende. Dest: Qubec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone: Vende. Dest: Qubec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vende. Dest: Qubec.

TURCOT dit TURREAU, Franois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Dou-la-Fontaine (St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie

> Nat Taylor

> a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
> my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: Nathaniel Taylor
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:19:45 GMT


In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>> From: Nathaniel Taylor

>> Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've already seen of origins of specific emigres to
>> Quebec) or distribution of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late 19th century? The
>> IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

> Nat, knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that migrated to new france in the mid
> 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my ancestor.

> TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendee. Dest: Quebec.

> TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone: Vendee. Dest: Quebec.

> TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendee. Dest: Quebec.

> TURCOT dit TURREAU, Francois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doue-la-Fontaine (St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire.
> Dest: Acadie

Bob, thanks for this. I saw them on your website too. My question is whether there's any French data to document surname use in France (not just 'Turcot' emigrants) in the 1600s or 1700s? For England, the National Burial Index, searchable for a particular time period, relies entirely on extractions from parish registers; it is searchable at http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/

You can get hits by county for free, but actual records (localized by parishes) cost money.

The English equivalent of the surname mapping site Denis cited is at University College, London: http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/UCLnames/default.aspx

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors: http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm

 

 

 

 

From: Denis Beauregard
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:25:24 -0500

Le Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:19:45 GMT, Nathaniel Taylor écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

>> TURCOT dit TURREAU, Francois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doue-la-Fontaine (St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire.
>> Dest: Acadie

> Bob, thanks for this. I saw them on your website too. My question is

The original data is on my site. This particular database is now obsolete and I have a new one with migrants by French departement or country, and town, and also a full alphabetical index for those married before 1721. My sources are numerous, including first hand and second hand records. My scope is the French colonies of the American continent, so it is in immigrant database and not an emigrant database. Nonetheless, I have in my computer or available in Montreal some ressources about emigrants like passengers' lists.

If your interest is France, then we should continue this in soc.genealogy.french.

> whether there's any French data to document surname use in France (not just 'Turcot' emigrants) in the 1600s or
> 1700s? For England, the National Burial Index, searchable for a particular time period, relies entirely on
> extractions from parish registers; it is searchable at

See my other message in this thread.

Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les FranÃ&sect;ais d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

 

 

 

 

From: Denis Beauregard
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:39:57 -0500

Le Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:23 GMT, Nathaniel Taylor écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
> In article, ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

>>> See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp for distribution of the names. Try with
>>> TURCOT (half are in Vendee), as other variations are less common.

> Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've already seen of origins of specific emigres to

> Quebec) or distribution of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late 19th century? The IGI

> has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

There are many French databases with a French interface. Some are free (limited details) other require to buy tokens or to be member of a society. In that case, the index is free but usually will not cover all the French departements. In most cases, data is limited to existing records and the previous generation (i.e. parents). Not very relevant for medieval search.

www.geneanet.org

index of personal data from many users. of limited help when the name is very common, in particular when someone migrated to Quebec and has a lot of descendants (you will have to dig among those descendants before seeing something new).

www.geneabank.org

central database for many genealogical societies. membership required but you can view data from any other societies.

www.bigenet.org and www.genealogy.tm.fr (www.genealogie.com has the same database)

2 commercial databases. bigenet is the official database of the French federation but societies can be member of the federation and put their data in both databases or even in the database of the competitor only

Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les FranÃ&sect;ais d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

 

 

 

 

From: "Tompkins, M.L."
Subject: RE: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:47:20 -0000

<<The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.>>

That last sentence leaps a sizeable logic gap. I can believe that the surname Turk is connected to the middle eastern Turks (or middle eastern people generally), but it isn't obvious that it must therefore be a nickname given to a crusader. It could equally well be a nickname given to a man with a swarthy complexion, or perhaps with personality traits that were thought to be characteristic of Turks.

I have looked Turk up in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English surnames. The format there is to give a number of early occurrences of each surname and then to comment on them.

The earliest example is an individual in the Cambridgeshire Domesday Book called Turch, Turcus. This early date rather puts paid to the crusader idea.

There are several examples from the 12th and 13th centuries, among them Ricardus filius Torke and Ricardus filius Turk from Yorks in 1188 and Kent in 1205 respectively, which suggest that it was a personal name rather than a nickname - though there are also two examples in le Turc, le Turch, so perhaps it has multiple origins.

In their commentary Reaney and Wilson say that the Domesday Book name is explained by von Feilitzen as the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and that it seems clear that it was also used as a pet form of the Scandinavian name.

However they also say that most of the surnames appear to be nicknames from Old French 'turc' (Turk), a word which NED suggests was introduced into England during the 3rd crusade (1187-92), but which is found as a nickname in London half a century earlier.

But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or Turcote or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't one. -cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)' or the place where the cottagers dwell) but they tended to be the names of small, marginal settlements (cottagers were villagers who had a house but very little land, or none at all, and scraped a living working for others), some of which have not survived, or if they have survived remain small and don't appear in gazetteers.

Alternatively Turcott might be a pet form of the personal name Turk, or even of Thurkel - pet forms were often made by adding -et, sometimes to a shortened form of the name.

Matt Tompkins

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: RE: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:36:30 +0000

Matt,

My answers below

> From: "Tompkins, M.L."
> To: "Bob Turcott"
> Subject: RE: crusaders
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:01:53 -0000

> Hello Bob,

> Sorry - I sent my first reply you alone, not to the list, accidentally, so I re-sent it to the list shortly afterwards.

> I think we have to be careful to distinguish between the surnames Turk and Turcott. There's no strong
> etymological reason why they should have the same origins, unless perhaps (as I suggested) Turcott may have
> originated as Turket, ie a diminutive form of Turk (itself a diminutive form of the Anglo-Norse name Thurkell).
> But an origin in an English place-name seems the most probable.

> So I don't think any of the origins listed below are very likely to be relevant to your surname, since they relate to a
> different name.

I really think Turcott possibly could be a pet form of Turc or Le Turc or shortened version of Turc but not certain and without a doubt be of french origin. but further investigation in this area will be done to be sure.

> Even if Turcott did originate as Turket, none of the derivations below would apply to it. Derivation 7 because it is
> a modern (post 1930!) Turkish surname; derivations 1, 2 and 4 because they are German; and derivations 3, 5 and
> 6 because Turket would be a personal name, not a nickname or a description of someone's place of origin. But that
> does not matter because if Turcott does originate as a pet form of the Anglo-Norse personal name Thurkel, then
> that is another, new, derivation. You could call it derivation 8.

> I'm afraid coats of arms seldom provide guidance to a surname's origins - that is an old wive's tale. It is usually the
> other way round - the coat of arms derives from the surname. Medieval people loved what they called canting
> arms - arms which contained a pun on the family's surname. It isn't surprising that a family called Turk couldn't
> resist using a Turk's Head as their arms.

some cases, but not all anything is worth a shot.

> But are you sure that these are the arms of a family called Turcott, not one called Turk? And if yes, are you sure
> that they are arms used by your Turcott family, not a different Turcott family? I've never heard of The Historical
> research Institute, Inc, but it sounds suspiciously like one of these bucket shops which sell meaningless
> certificates, with fake statements about a surname's origins and heraldry.

Bucket/butcher shops, yes indeed a good possible name for them!!!!! not certain thats why I am checking with the experts here for help, it is quite possible they are fake they may not be for my family, keep in mind sometimes arms were given to groups of crusaders with variants, however, for my family specifically, probably not, But I will investage all possibilties.

>What you sometimes find in heraldry books is a statement that a Turk's Head (or Saracen's Head, or Blackamoor's
> Head) on a coat of arms is a sign that someone in the family had once been on crusade. This is seldom true, and a
> good book will mention it only as a mistaken belief which should not be given credence.

I am not sure if I would agree with you on this 100%, my reasoning is we have to take into acount that there may be some very good books and very bad french heraldic books out there and the only way to clarify is for me to get the source book and cite the referance then decide as a group if its a good source or not.

> Sorry to be a wet blanket, but this is the honest answer to your queries.

Honesty and accuracy is what I am looking for here, my next post I will cite the heraldic books that indicate the full name Turcott derived from some shortened version of it as a crusader.

Till the next post

> Regards,

> Matt (not Tom)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Turcott
> Sent: 26 January 2006 16:28
> To:
> Subject: RE: crusaders

> Tom,

> However, I have seen in heraldic books mention the surname Turcott as a name being applied to a crusader, I will
> take a look and find the book I found it in some yaers ago at a library, I recall this mentioned in a french heraldic
> book.

> however Etymologists have identified the following origins:

> 1. Derivation from a place name, e.g. from Trkwitz in Breslau, Turknwitz in Bohemia and Turckheim in France.

> 2. Derivation from a natural or manmade feature near which the original surname bearer lived, e.g. "zum Trken"
> and "zum Drken".

> 3. Derivation from a nickname, a physical characteristic or personal attribute of the original bearer.

> 4. Derivation from a patronymic such as Dietrich from Theodorich.

> 5. Derivation from a shortened title of a "fighter against the Turks" given to a returned Crusader.

> 6. Derivation from a descriptive title for a Turk who settled among non-Turks, i.e. "the Turk".

> 7. Finally in 1930 Turkey required its citizens to assume a surname. Many assumed the surname Turk or Trk.

> In closing I may entertain the 2 items below as possibilties.

> Derivation from a nickname, a physical characteristic or personal attribute of the original bearer.

> Derivation from a shortened title of a "fighter against the Turks" given to a returned Crusader.

> It would be interesting in having the coat of arms that are mentioned in my first post examined by an heraldic
> expert to see were it leads..

>> From: "Tompkins, M.L."
>> To: "Bob Turcott"
>> Subject: RE: crusaders
>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:43:30 -0000

>> <<The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is,
>> descriptive of some personal or physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the
>> name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus"
>> meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the
>> surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.>>

>> That last sentence leaps a sizeable logic gap. I can believe that the surname Turk is connected to the middle
>> eastern Turks (or middle eastern people generally), but it isn't obvious that it must therefore be a nickname given
>> to a crusader. It could equally well be a nickname given to a man with a swarthy complexion, or perhaps with
>> personality traits that were thought to be characteristic of Turks.

>> I have looked Turk up in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English surnames. The format there is to give a
>> number of early occurrences of each surname and then to comment on them.

>> The earliest example is an individual in the Cheshire Domesday Book called Turch, Turcus. This early date
>> rather puts paid to the crusader idea.

>> There are several examples from the 12th and 13th centuries, among them Ricardus filius Torke and Ricardus
>> filius Turk from Yorks in 1188 and Kent in 1205 respectively, which suggest that it was a personal name rather
>> than a nickname - though there are also two examples in le Turc, le Turch, so perhaps it has multiple origins.

>>In their commentary Reaney and Wilson say that the Domesday Book name is explained by von Feilitzen as the
>> Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an Anglo-Norse loss of the -ell, and that it seems clear that it was also
>> used as a pet form of the Scandinavian name.

>> However they also say that most of the surnames appear to be nicknames from Old French 'turc' (Turk), a word
>> which NED suggests was introduced into England during the 3rd crusade (1187-92), but which is found as a
>> nickname in London half a century earlier.

>> But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't really see that is has to be - it looks rather as
>> if its origin is an English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or Turcote, but that doesn't mean
>> that there wasn't one. -cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)' or the place where
>> the cottagers dwell) but they tended to be the names of small, marginal settlements (cottagers were villagers who
>> had a house but very little land, or none at all, and scraped a living working for others), some of which have not
>> survived, or if they have survived remain small and don't appear in gazetteers.

>> Alternatively Turcott might be a pet form of the personal name Turk, or even of Thurkel - pet forms were often
>> made by ading -et, sometimes to a shortened form of the name.

>> Matt Tompkins

 

 

 

 

From: ""
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: 26 Jan 2006 16:18:37 -0800

Geeze I have the same problem. It turns out that my honey and I are related about 8 generations back.

Everyone was in the Ohio Valley at the same time.

I also turn out to be a Brooks/Mayflower descendant-lucky I have a son to prove this. My brother is dead. I'm probably my own cousin if you go back far enough.

Hakes is also Hakon which takes me back to my Norse heritage....dang Vikings-they were everywhere too!

I'm Scotch, Scotch-Irish English Norwegian & swede. All my dang families turn in on themselves.

And what's worse-there is a genetic disease in the family.....

Trudy

 

 

 

 

From: "Tompkins, M.L."
Subject: RE: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:15:33 -0000

<<It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. >>

It was I who suggested to Bob that Turcott might have originated as a pet form of Turc, so I ought defend my suggestion.

Middle English commonly produced pet forms of names by first shortening them (eg Thomas to Tom; Richard to Rick, Dick, Hick; Robert to Rob, Hob, Dob etc) and then adding one of a list of suffixes, -kin, -el, et, -in being the most common (thus producing, for example, Tomkin, Tomsett, Tomlin - the last is a double suffix, Tom-el-in). This what Bob means by an elongated version.

Reaney and Wilson said something to the effect that von Feilitzen explained the Cambridgeshire Domesday references to Turch, Turcus, as the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and added that it seemed clear to them that Turc was used as a pet form of the Scandinavian name.

If so, then it is quite possible that the pet form Turc-et also existed, and gave rise to a patronymic surname. The modern spelling of Turcott need not limit us to looking for a place-name origin. The difference between Turcott and Turcett is insignificant enough to allow an origin as a patronym.

It also occurs to me that if Thorkell could be shortened to Turk by loss of the -ell, so also could the Anglo-Scandinavian name Thorketil be shortened to Turket.

That said, I do think an origin as a place-name is the most likely explanation for Turcott, as I said in my own post earlier. And I am curious to know why Bob is so sure the name is French. What is the evidence for this? Is it that he has traced the surname back to emigrants from France?

Lastly, Ford's suggestion that the first holder of the surname might have been a cottar is to conflate two distinct stages in the formation of a toponymic surname. The place-name Turcott would have been formed because it consisted of cotlands, or cottars lived there. However the surname could (indeed would probably) have been formed centuries later, when someone took his name from the place. By then the tenurial nature of the place would probably have changed, and that person need not have been a cottar - indeed he could even have been the lord of the place.

Matt Tompkins

 

 

 

 

From: "Bob Turcott"
Subject: RE: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:05:52 +0000

> From: "Tompkins, M.L."
> To:
> Subject: RE: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:15:33 -0000

> <<It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
> element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. >>

> It was I who suggested to Bob that Turcott might have originated as a pet form of Turc, so I ought defend my
> suggestion.

I never suggested it, to be quite frank here, I used this forum to check a possible bogus paper written by a company that sell coats of arms and the like...

> Middle English commonly produced pet forms of names by first shortening them (eg Thomas to Tom; Richard to
> Rick, Dick, Hick; Robert to Rob, Hob, Dob etc) and then adding one of a list of suffixes, -kin, -el, et, -in being the
> most common (thus producing, for example, Tomkin, Tomsett, Tomlin - the last is a double suffix, Tom-el-in).
> This what Bob means by an elongated version.

Middle english forget about it!!! not relevant...

> Reaney and Wilson said something to the effect that von Feilitzen explained the Cambridgeshire Domesday
> references to Turch, Turcus, as the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and added that
> it seemed clear to them that Turc was used as a pet form of the Scandinavian name.

There are a lot more books on this sunject besides the dooms day book and using this as an only source would be a severe injustice and lack of repect for my ancestors.

> If so, then it is quite possible that the pet form Turc-et also existed, and gave rise to a patronymic surname. The
> modern spelling of Turcott need not limit us to looking for a place-name origin. The difference between Turcott
> and Turcett is insignificant enough to allow an origin as a patronym.

Not relevant at this time

> It also occurs to me that if Thorkell could be shortened to Turk by loss of the -ell, so also could the
> Anglo-Scandinavian name Thorketil be shortened to Turket.

not relevant

> That said, I do think an origin as a place-name is the most likely explanation for Turcott, as I said in my own post
> earlier. And I am curious to know why Bob is so sure the name is French. What is the evidence for this? Is it that
> he has traced the surname back to emigrants from France?

Yes, I have indeed! Infact my ancestor Francois Turcot dit Tureau married catherine Doiron maris le 17 janvier 1740 St-Pierre de Port Toulouse, Acadie (St.Peter, Nouvelle cosse)

Francois Turcott married Jeanne Perodeau. (Francois Turcot's grandparents)

(Francois Turcot's parents)Their son, Francois was born in La Rochelle, St. Bartholomew's parish. This Francois married Jeanne Bidet, 2 Sep 1709. She was dau. of Pierre Bidet and Jeanne Renault, The marriage took place at Doue La Fontaine, Anjou, France.

They had a son, Francois, who came to Acadia, born at Doue, 7 May 1710 . (this Francois is the husband of Cather DOIRON)

Source: Les Amities Genealogiques Canadiennes Francaises, No. 11, 2000, pages 33 - 35. Article by Jean-Marie Germe Les Amities Genealogiques Canadiennes Francaises

> Lastly, Ford's suggestion that the first holder of the surname might have been a cottar is to conflate two distinct
> stages in the formation of a toponymic surname. The place-name Turcott would have been formed because it
> consisted of cotlands, or cottars lived there. However the surname could (indeed would probably) have been
> formed centuries later, when someone took his name from the place. By then the tenurial nature of the place would
> probably have changed, and that person need not have been a cottar - indeed he could even have been the lord of
> the place.

> Matt Tompkins