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Mounteney Research Newsletter Number 1a - Never Published - 16 Dec 1995
EDITORIAL - Are we descended from
William the Conquerors brother.
COMPUTER - Has not been working
sorry for any ommisions.
BIRTHS
Kayley, a girl was born to Lee Richardson and Sue on the 20th
July 1995, Congratulations to Sue and Lee.
On the 31 July 1996 Simon and Lorraine Hughes had a baby boy. I
have not found out his name yet!!!
MARRIAGES
Jill Martin and Iain McKinstry were married whilst on holiday in
Lindos, Rhodes, Greece
[Photo]
NEW ADDITIONS TO OUR MAILING LIST
and addresses for direct contact with the contributors.
Edith Barry
John Duval Brochet
Mountenay of Westmeath Ireland 1720-1987
Frank Dunn
Cousin of Eve Parry, descended from Large Mountney & Sarah
Stone,of Snelston
Rosemary Anne Garner
"Rose Cottage"
H. Garratt
Florence Elizabeth Copestake m. Fred Turner 10 July 1920
Mary Jane Greaser
Interested in Joseph G. Mountenay adopted of Philadelphia
Roger Jennens
Geoffrey Levesley
Interested in Ecclesfield Priory and descendant of George Greaves.
Diane Lindsay
Searching for the Ancestors of Jane Copestick a fellon in
Stafford Gaol. Contacted us via the internet.
Jill McKinstrey left of the list last time.
Eve Parry
Fred Rance
Susan Stepp
Lynn Taylor
Joyce White
I have also decided to send copies of the newsletter to Lichfield
Joint Record Office and Derbyshire Record Office
COPESTAKE ORIGINS
The main Copestake line that I have been searching originates in
the Parish of Snelston on the Derbyshire side of the Derbyshire/
Staffordshire border. I believe that William Copestake (c.1730-1818)
moved from Ellastone across the County boundary to become the
first Snelston Copestake. I am still working on the Ellastone
link to try and prove this. It is also possible that some if not
all the Copestakes came from this area. There are also some
earlier references in Yorkshire, the earliest being Geoffrey
Coupstak in the Register of the Freemen of the City of York in
1295.
Spelling Variant missed out of last
newsletter:
MOUNTNEY Spotted by Eve Parry
COPESTICK Missed by Simon Martin, but spotted by John Pleydell
who says he also thinks it is a phonetic spelling of COPESTAKE.
PUBLICITY
An article has appeared in the September Issue of Derbyshire
Family History Magazine from which Rosemary Garner and Elaine
Copestake made contact with me. In addition Annie Glass from the
USA contacted me re the Holloways of Snelston and the state of
the Snelston Parish Registers and Bishops Transcripts.
"The Flowing Stream" published an article form which
Rosemund A. Du Cane contacted me. She is interested in the
STANIFORTH family and in the 1614 Will of Nicholas Mountney. If
any one has any further details contact her via Simon Martin.
Update on last time
FH SOCIETY TOLD THEM ABOUT DETAILS RECD LIST OF PUBLICATIONS
MIGHT ANNOUNCE OUR GROUP
MOUNTENYS IN OF FHS RECEIVED AND FILED IN THEIR NEXT NEWSLETTER
ESSEX Mountnessing Yes 1851 Census
Index Mention in August Journal
Directories, MIs
MOUNTNEY AND COPESTAKE WATCH
The following members are also watching their local family
history societies for Mountneys and Copestakes:
Channel Islands FHS - Eve Parry
Derbyshire FHS - Eve Parry, Joyce White, Anne Garner
Devon FHS - Eve Parry
Federation of FHS - Simon Martin
Gloucestershire FHS - John Pleydell
Guild of One Name St - Simon Martin
Gwynedd FHS - Eve Parry
Isle of Wight FHS - John Pleydell
Liverpool & SW Lancs - Simon Martin
Manchester & Lancs - Simon Martin
Nottinghamshire FHS - Joyce White
COPESTAKE LISTEN!
A 'Margaret Copestake' played the piano on "Classic FM"
during the week preceeding 10th September 1995 [Heared by Myra
Mainey]
TELEPHONE DIRECTORY RESULTS
Mounteney
Aberdeen & NE Nil
Clyde Valley Nil
Derby 19
Glasgow 1
Leicester 6
Liverpool Nil (6 Mountaine only)
Manchester S. 8 including N. Cheshire
Norfolk 2 (Crockfords Clerical Directory)
Nottinghamshire 13
Rotheram Nil
South West Scot Nil
St Helens Nil
Stafford 1
Wigan Nil
Copestake
Aberdeen & NE Nil
Clyde Valley Nil
Derby 26
Glasgow Nil
Lancashire 1 (Crockfords Clerical Directory)
Liverpool 6
Leicester 8
Manchester S. 18 including N. Cheshire
Nottinghamshire 12
Rotheram 5
South West Scot 1
St Helens Nil
Stafford 17
Wigan Nil
The Derby Directory has been done a few times by different people
and the figures above reflect various adjustments as regards that
directory [mainly people who do not have a phone!]
Profile of Joyce White
Mountney Book
Dict Nat Biography, Robert & Odo
Fairbairns crests
Leicestershire Mounteneys
Main line as is
Holiday in Derbyshire
Ecclesfield Priory article
Snelston, got to see the inside of the church but no Copestake or
Mountney memorials
Photos Frank Dunn have permission
Obtained a copy of the book by Rev Bowyer (1953) The Ancient
Parish of Norbury (Map of the parish) includes Snelston,
Derbyshire
THE USE OF COMPUTERS IN
ONE-NAME STUDIES
One-name studies collect lots of information, many thousands of
records about, individuals, families and places.
Some one-name studies use massive unwieldy card indexes.
Computers are now cheaply available and make this task a lot
easier. All you often need to do is put in the name or place and
the information appears on the computer screen. The information
can then be printed out and sent out by post, or the information
can be copied onto a small disc, which can hold the equivalent of
a book, and can then be used on someone else's computer.
All the information still needs to be collected and then sent to
someone with a computer for inputting. Often this involves
visiting massive record offices and searching through hundreds of
records till you find the one you are looking for, Great fun!!
Computers are only a tool, and like all tools need to be used in
the right way to get the best results.
Specialists have now developed lots of computer programes for use
by family historians. I will call these Genealogical Packages.
On a genealogical package people are linked in families as well
as just by alphabetical sorts and dates. There are set pieces of
information like date of birth. There is also a facility for
adding notes about all sorts of different things.
All information needs be on the system so that it can be easily
retrieved. It would be good if other people can also input
information on their computer and then send in the disc so that
it can all be compiled together. All the data can then be copied
and all the contributors can then have a copy of all the
information on their own computer system. All the members in the
computer group need to have either the same software or to use a
set information format to transfer information. The most used
format is GEDCOM (Genealogical Communication). This has the
information in a set way that the allows the computer to tell the
difference between a date of birth and a place of marriage, so
that it can reassemble the information in the correct order.
There is also an index to most of the parish registers called the
International Genealogical Index which is available on GEDCOM.
The package makes it easy to find information wanted e.g. ask the
computer to find all the Sarah Pleydells born before 1848 living
in Colchester, and it will. Very useful if you are decended from
a Sarah Pleydell of Colchester born before 1848!
The information produced needs to be easily understandable by
anyone receiving the information they asked for, this depends on
how well the information is input to the computer without any
ambiguous abbreviation, some words may also need translationg or
explaining. Preferably it would be best if the information could
be just printed straight out without having to be loaded into a
word processor and then re-typed.
I thought it would be a good idea to look at some other one name
studies and how they are computerised. The three I have come up
with are:
1) The Mounteny One Name Study
I use Personal Ancestral File as the main genealogical package.
But it cannot produce the familiar charts like those in the
Pedigree Book we have all been looking at.
Also people who are not yet linked into the family tree are kept
on a very complicated separate database called SIMON INDEX which
has to link people by name place, and date.
There is also another separate Bibliography, a list of articles
and publications which have been used to compile the family
histories.
I am at present transferring the data to Brothers Keeper in a
similar way to Lindfield (see below)
2) TATCHELL
Uses a database to record all records and then relates them to
one-another using Brothers Keeper, genealogical package.
3) LINDFIELD
Uses Brothers Keeper to record everything, using some very clever
tricks. This has the advantage of having everything in one place
and stops things having to be typed in twice.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Lindfield, Alan
To Every Purpose There is a Program - Some Thoughts on Software
for Family History
GOONS Journal Vol5 No.7 p209-213 1995,July
Tatchell, Jim
Helping a One-Name Study with a computer
Jnl of Guild Of One NS 1994,Octobe
These Mounteneys
Keep Cropping Up
From our South Yorkshire Correspondent - Lynn Taylor
Together with my cousin, the Editor, I have been involved in
researching our family tree (The Copestakes) which has lead to
the discovery of the Mounteney/Mortain connection. Whilst Simon
with his vast knowledge to delve deeper I have found myself
somewhat locking in gaining fresh information. Imagine my delight
when by a mere chance I found that my daughter's friend lives in
a house called "Mounteney House" and this was
originally bought by a gentleman for his spinster daughters to
live in.
Recently I have stumbled on some more information which again was
by pure chance. At Sewerby Hall near Bridlington. Just on the
point of leaving I caught sight of a plaque in the last room
giving a list of previous omners and my eyes mearly popped out of
my head when I read:
Previous Owners of the Manor of Sewerby
Carle & Torchil Saxon landlords prior to 1066
Robert, Count of Mortain - half brother of William the
Conqueror.
Richard de Surdeval - confiscated by William Rufus 1088
etc etc
Presently owned by the Council
Robert, Count of Mortain owned vast tracts of North Yorkshire as
a reward for helping William with his invasion of England. (See
The History of Yorkshire [Phillimore] and The Dombesday Book for
further details)
It just goes to show that the trail never goes cold and there's
always some information just waiting to be discovered so don't
give up hope.
Rosemary Gorner
28 Aug 1995
My maiden name is Copestake and I have recently begun to research
my paternal relations. I have a book full of information of
various things, but I am having difficulty tieing them together
made worse by the fact that I know so little about my immediate
family.
My recent family all lived in Derby, especially Marston
Montgomery, Brailsford, Kirk Langley, Cubley and Ashbourne. My
Great Grandad WALTER JOSEPH COPESTAKE (1865-1958) was a postman
married to ROSANNIE BULL? when my Great Great Grandfather WILLIAM
WALTER COPESTAKE and his wife ? SUSANNAH we know little about,
but suspect contact with the Goodalls of Marston, as the name
GOODALL-COPESTAKE appears in the Marston Parish Registers.
I would be grateful for any help. Please contact via Simon.
Elaine Copestake is interested in Arthur Copestake who was born
24.9.1880 to Thomas Copestake & Mary Ann Spencer Copestake Ne
Price at 'Dalton' in the registration district of Wigan. Arthur
later moved to Derby where he stayed until he died.
Any info. for Elaine forward via Simon.
1881 Census
TOWARDS A FAMILY TREE
Progress being made using Brother's Keeper
ESSEX - MOUNTNEY
Guy Stapleton is doing some work on this Branch.
YORKSHIRE - MOUNTNEY
I started looking at:
Hunter, J. Gatty, A. (ed)
History of the Parish of Sheffield
p 389-395 1869
The big family tree in this article does not match at all well
with my provisional tree on the Computer and hence my GCSE Thesis.
I have started the laborious task of inputting the entries from
Hunter onto the Computer. Please take Hunter as a better
authority than myself as my tree is seriously flawed.
Copy printed in this newsletter.
LEICESTERSHIRE - MOUNTNEY
Guy Stapleton has sent in a very high quality tree for this
family see the copy printed with this newsletter.
LONDON - MOUNTNEY
Guy Stapleton is doing some work on this Branch.
DERBYSHIRE - MOUNTNEY & COPESTAKE
Simon Martin has a working copy of his own tree, please contact
Simon if you need a copy.
STAFFORDSHIRE - COPESTAKE
Simon Martin has a working copy of the Copestake family of
Ellastone if you need more details please contact Simon.
COMPUTER SYSTEM/RECORDS
For Christmas Simon Martin has received a copy of a computer
program called Brothers Keeper which can produce drop line charts
(like normal family trees) rather than the boring lists at
present. This is also easier to use. He has not been able to
transfer the data from the old system with any success.
At the moment Brothers Keeper contains:
- Some micellaneous records
- A copy of the computer files of Frank Dunn to make up for my
own files not transferring Frank had put a lot of the
Mountney material on disc.
- International Genealogical Index [IGI] (1988 & 1992 ed.)
for
the Copestakes and Copesticks of Cheshire
- Some Parish Register Entries regarding Copestakes and
Copesticks of Cheshire identified via the IGI
- IGI (1988) Copestakes and Copesticks of Lancashire which has
produced some interesting links with the Cheshire records.
- 1881 Census Index Mountney, Mounteney, Mountany, of
- Derbyshire [On going not yet completed]
- Elaine Copestakes resesarch
- Alan Bardsleys [Bardsley one name Study] research into a
Copestake who married a Beardsley in Derbyshire.
As time permits other records are being added and cross
referenced.
If anyone has managed to transfer a file from a Personal
Ancestral File [PCW] to Brothers Keeper [PC] I would be very
interested to hear!! Help needed.
MORE COMPUTER WORK!
Whilst the computers were not well I started to compile an index
of all the Mountney entries and files that are building up. This
is a very simplified database. It contains mainly Leicestershire
and London area information. If you want any specific information
please contact Simon Martin. I can supply a copy to anyone who
sends a 3.5" Marked Mountney Index. Tell me whether you want
the file as ASCCI or Lotus 123/Symphony.
SOME PROJECTS
There are tthree projects that you may be interested in -no
compulsion-
1) The records for Copestakes and Mountneys and their variants
need transcribing from the Edlaston Parish Registers in
Derbyshire Record Office, Matlock.
2) St Catherines House indexes, any entries, or offers to extract
entries for a year or two would be appreciated. Also photocopies
of any certificates would be very valuable.
3) Derby Central Library has a Census Surname index for Derby
only, Needs Searching for Copestakes, Mountneys and variants.
Also Derbyshire FHS published an index to the 1851 Census, Also
the 1881 Census index for Derbyshire needs searching [CENSUS
RECORDS]
Please tell me if you are doing any or a part of these projects
to eliminate duplication, before work commences.
I repeat there is no pressure.
If you would be able to contribute to the above projects or any
others of your interest, please tell me so that we can prevent
duplication of work and distribute the results.
With Best Wishes
Simon
.
The Life of William James
Burgess, Sergeant in the
Cheshire Police Constabulary
William James was born in Fulbeck in Lincolnshire according to
the 1881 Census and his enlistment with the Police. He was born
about the year 1845 as he enlisted at the age of 27 on 23 August
1872.
We know very little about his early life, and it is very hard to
find records of his baptism as the International Genealogical
Index (an index to parish registers) does not index Fulbeck
Church for the years around his birth.
We do know that he was married twice, as he married as a widower
when he married Myra Clarke in 1877. He also had a child by his
first marriage called Frank Burgess, born in Sheffield about 1869,
the only reference to Frank is in the 1881 Census for Bromborough
where he is a scholar aged 12.
Cheshire Record Office in Chester has an excellent collection of
archives of the Cheshire Constabulary, including personnel
records, pension records and a fascinating register of all their
policemen's marriages, which records the marriage certificates
presented by officers in this Constabulary.
On my visit to Chester a couple of years ago, I was handed the
records with the last few pages tied up with string. This was to
prevent me from looking at any records less than 50 years old.
Very luckily for us, William James's records are all over 50
years old!
The first record is that of his enlistment, where he is described
as follows:
Religion p
All that this record gives is the letter "p". Well,
what does this mean? In prison records, it is well known that
"p" is used to denote "parish", that is,
"Church of England". As his son, William James Burgess
was baptised in Bromborough Parish Church, this also proves that
he was Church of England.
Country E
- which I expect is England or English. This Constabulary, of
course, operated on the England/Wales border, so this might have
been an important consideration, as nationality still is within
the Home Office.
Height 5 foot 9« inches
Hair DK
Complexion DK
I take these to be an abbreviation for "dark".
Eyes Hazel
We have a photograph of him in his police uniform which is forms
the cover to this booklet. The number on his lapel even matches
that in his personnel records.
His personnel records also record his wages. He started in 1872
on a salary of 20s per week which rises gradually over the years
to become 28s in 1876, 29s 2d in 1886, 32s 8d in 1891 as Acting
Sergeant, and finally 34s 5d as a Sergeant in 1896. His finishing
salary was 87 6s 3d, giving him a salary of 54 2s 8d,
which is about the 2 guineas remembered by family tradition.
There is also a family tradition that his brother, who we don't
have a name for, received 1s a week out of his wages, but this we
have not been able to prove.
His police career seems to have started with some training
between August and September 1872 as he seemed to be posted to
Reserve? Division. In September 1872, he is posted to the Wirral
Division, where he remains for the rest of his career. In 1890,
in a directory for Cheshire, he is the Police Sergeant at Eastham
Police Station. Bromborough Police Station seems only to be
commanded by one police constable. This is a bit like the
situation in the TV series "Heartbeat", where there is
a main station, and little substations. It is not known where he
was based when he was just a constable, but we do know from the
1881 Census that, at that time he was living on the Birkenhead
and Chester Road, Bromborough. However, he is not listed there or
anywhere else in Bromborough, on the 1891 Census.
There are two main incidents in his career, which are described
in his personnel records. One is a very good incident, and the
other seems to be the only black mark on his otherwise "exemplary"
career. The incident for which he received commendation from the
Chief Constable, as well as 5s, is described as follows:
"Capture of two men after a determined struggle for robbing
a woman at Tranmere" on 6 April 1874.
The earlier black mark was at Christmas, 1872, when he was found
drunk at 1 am Christmas morning. A misconduct report was filed
and he was fined 15s for this!
William received three awards for service, the first in 1880,
when he was given a Good Conduct Badge. The second was in 1882,
when he was given an additional Good Conduct Badge, and finally,
in 1886 for long and meritorious service, he was given a Merit
Badge and a pay rise. I have in my collection one of these
badges, but which one we do not know!
One major incident in his life was obviously his second marriage
to Myra Clarke. This was performed on 7 October 1877 by the Revd.
T. A. Gurney at Wibbenhall Church, Worcestershire. A copy of
their marriage lines has been taken from the Cheshire
Constabulary's marriage register, which gives the following
details: William was 29 years old, a constable and widower of
Tranmere, whose father was William Burgess, Labourer of
Lincolnshire. Myra Clarke is only 21 years old, a spinster and
servant also of Tranmere, whose father was Jas. Clarke, Labourer
of Worcestershire.
At their marriage, Myra was presented with a family Bible by her
father. This is now in my possession, but very unfortunately, the
dedication plate had been ripped out, and the family records and
photographs had never been put into it. I could just about make
out the bookplate, but got their marriage date wrong, and for
years I have been searching for their marriage certificate for
1873, which is obviously now the wrong date. I was beginning to
plan a trip to Scotland to see if they'd been married there, as
the Bible had been published in the North East of England.
They had two children, the first was, William James, born 19th
June 1877, in Bromborough; but the date of their marriage is 7
October 1877 and his mother describes herself as "Myra
Burgess formerly Clarke" on his birth certificate. Is the
date in the police records therefore wrong? or where they not
married? Their other child was Irvine born about 1880 also in
Bromborough.
William James Burgess junior, became an engine fireman and later
an engine driver for The Midland Railway. He married Jane Harris
and lived in Liverpool. They had four children: Myra, Irvine,
William James and Florence. More details are given in the
enclosed family tree.
The last episode of William's life is his time as a pensioner. He
was a pensioner for 23 years 59 days, having served in the Police
Constabulary for 25 years and 70 days. He was paid a total
pension of 1,253 15s 10d as a pensioner, which is a pretty
good deal, I am sure! He died according to the pension records on
29 December 1920, at the age of 75 years and 3 months.
During his retirement, he received visits from his grandchildren,
Aunty Bett (Florence) used to visit him in Eastham Ferry,
Rosedale Road. Also, Aunty Myra used to visit him in Tarporley,
Eastham, where his garden went down to the canal.
Latest 31 Aug 2001: Birth
Certificate of Irvine Burgess 1880 http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~copestake/bir1880i.html
SDM/RAM 16 Dec 1995 BURGESSW.ILL
Last updated 31 Aug 2001 - Web Master - Simon Martin [email protected]
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