This is a DNA Note, supplemental to the Irvine sub-sheet to the Border Reivers "R1b" and Various Border Reiver Haplogroups and subclades DNA Spreadsheets. See also a Discussion of specific Irvine/Irving DNA Results by Jim Elliott. This DNA Note has been updated to 7 April 2005, and includes commentary between James V. Elliott and David B. Strong, Co-Administrators of the Border Reivers DNA Project, and Kent L. Irvin, coordinator for the Irvine clan. What follows is an edited version of an exchange of messages regarding the origin of certain Irvine (and variant spellings) lineages. This webpage is provided as a possible source of information which may be useful for those interested in further research:

Introduction and Overview:,
Discussion of Lineages:,
Discussion and Analysis of DNA Results:

Return to the Irvine DNA Spreadsheet
Go to Discussion of specific Irvine/Irving DNA Results, by Jim Elliott.



Introduction and Overview:
There are apparently several major sources of Irvine and variantly spelled Irving, Irvin, Irwin, Ervin, Erwin, Arwin, and etc., lineages:

1) The "Irvines of Drum": These may again separate into at least two identifiably different Lineages and DNA haplotypes including the Irvines of Drum, in Aberdeenshire, as well as the Irvines of the Shetland and Orkney Islands. According to the Irvine Clan History at http://www.myclan.com/clans/Irvine_55/default.php:

"It was King Robert the Bruce who first brought the Irvine family to Drum. For many years legends have suggested that William was armour-bearer and secretary to the King, however recent detailed research of contemporary charters and documents, by members of the Irvine family have challenged these legends. It is now more probable that William de Irwyn hailed from the town of Irvine in Ayrshire. Later he was a clerk in the royal chancellry, where he was a protégé of Bernard, Abbot of Arbroath, Chancellor of Scotland. Nevertheless he was sufficiently well regarded in the royal household, to have been worthy of being made the King's representative in the Royal forest of Drum. He was given ownership of the Tower of Drum and was granted the Barony of Drum in 1323."

See, for a more detailed and interesting history, The Irvines of Drum Castle, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

2) The "Border Irvines": The Border Irvines are popularly believed to be related to the Irvines of Drum near Aberdeen and to the Orkney Island Irvines. The earliest possible common ancestor would have been born between 1300 and 1350. [See: Original Message, from: Kent Irvin to: David Strong, cc: James Elliott; sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:00 PM; Subject: Re: Results]. Note how this time period coincides with the 1323 date suggested above re the Irvines of Drum and in the Irvine Clan History.

According to the Irvine Clan History at http://www.myclan.com/clans/Irvine_55/default.php:

"The Brythonic ‘ir-afon’ means ‘green water’. The lands which first bore the name of Irvine appear to have been in Dumfriesshire. Family tradition asserts that the origin of the chiefly family is linked with the early Celtic monarchs of Scotland. Duncan Eryvine was the brother of Crinan, who, through the lay Abbots of Dunkeld, claimed descent from the High Kings of Ireland. Crinan married the daughter and heiress of Malcolm II, and their eldest son became King Duncan, whose murder forms the basis for Shakespeare’s Macbeth."
See "Border Irvines, below".

In addition to border Irvines and the possibly related Orkney/Shetland Irvines and Aberdeen (Drum) Irvines, there are two other possible sources of Irvines (other than non-paternity events):

3) The "Dutch Arnwine/Arwines": as appears to be the case for ESVN6; these individuals are presumably a very low percentage of all Irvines/Erwins/etc.

4) Irish O'Hirwen, which may be a possibility for AURFX. In "The Book of Ulster Surnames", Robert Bell notes that "a very few" Ulster Irwins actually "may be originally O'Hirwen, Gaelic O hEireamhoin, a rare Leinster name" (page 102). Kent Irvin states, "I have never actually found an Irish O'Hirwen/Erwin in any documented source. In the nineteenth century over 80% of Irish Irvines appear to have been in Ulster, with the rest scattered fairly evenly around the rest of Ireland. Some of the Irvines outside of Ulster appear to have had military backgrounds which suggest to me a Scottish, if not a border, origin. There is also evidence for the spread of Ulster Irvines to other provinces of Ireland in the nineteenth century."



Discussions of the various lineages will be found below:
The Border Irvines:
The Dutch Arwines/Arnwines:


The Border Irvines:

----- Original Message -----
From: Kent L. Irvin
To: James V. Elliott
Cc: David B. Strong
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:55 PM
Subject: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project

I recently had DNA testing performed by Family Tree DNA and DNA Heritage. My data is in the Ysearch database as EHKTM. There are currently seven Irvine entries in Ysearch, all of which are likely of Border descent. In addition to my own data, WKXXJ and AURXF are not currently included in the Elliot and Border Reivers DNA project. [Editor's Note: This message precipitated development of the Irvine Clan Sub-sheet and this DNA Discussion Note]

The Border Irvines were divided into six major branches by about 1490:
Bonshaw,
Hoddam,
Pennersax,
Stakehugh/Skaill,
Gretna, and
Luce.

William Irvine of Bonshaw, John Irvine called "the Duke", Matthew Irvine of Pennersax, David Irvine of Stakehugh, John Irvine of Harstanemoor, and Jeffrey Irvine of Luce were probably all born between 1435 and 1465. (See Below for further discussion of each branch).
In 1585 these men appear to have had over 100 male Irvine descendants. The seven available Irvine samples suggest to me that the common ancestor of all six branches of the family (who was probably born around 1375/1400) had the following values for the markers used in the Elliot study, with the possible exception of the value for DYS391 which is 11 in four samples and 10 in the other 3:

[Editor's Note, See the "Assumed Irvine Ancestral Haplotype (AHT #1)" in the Irvine sub-sheet]:
13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 20 30 15 16 17 17

The five Irvine samples with these twenty five markers each have a genetic distance of 1 or 2 from this theoretical value. The ones that have a distance of two are DYS391=10.

My interpretation of the documentary evidence for the Border Irvines is that they descend from a common ancestor born in the last quarter of the fourteenth century. I have not found any evidence to support the idea that a significant number of individuals changed their surnames to that of the local laird within Dumfriesshire during this period. The evidence points to extremely large families. In part I would suggest that this was because it was acceptable for widowers with adult children to marry teenage girls, as seen among the Grahams, and because matrimonial alliances were highly valued. In my opinion the genetic makeup of the Irvines would have been affected far more by illegitimacy or false paternity than by the adoption of the surname by unrelated individuals simply because they were the local lairds.

I would appreciate any feedback or opinions on how to interpret the Irvine DNA data. I have collected a great deal of documentary evidence on the Border Irvines and would be happy to try and answer any questions you might have.

Sincerely,

Kent Irvin


----- Original Message -----
From: James V. Elliott
To: Kent L. Irvin
Cc: David B. Strong
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project

Kent,

Thanks for the info. I have seen the new Irvine entries in Ysearch that you have mentioned, and intend to incorporate them into my database very soon. I've gathered [about 1000] "Border Reiver" haplotypes so far, and have paused to conduct an analysis of their probable "deep ancestry" - both as a whole, and by individual family. [See: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7egallgaedhil/dna_by_haplogroup.htm]

I have also noticed the very close affinity between some of the Irvines and at least one of our Elliott participants, 2T7JS. (We also have an Elliott participant who genetically resembles some of the Maxwells more than his fellow Elliotts - this sort of thing is bound to happen, given the turbulent and free-wheeling history of the Border Clans.)

Incidentally, we have several Irvine/Irving participants who may be interested in your discussion of Irvine genealogy below. With your permission, I will pass this e-mail along to them. They may want to get in touch with you and compare notes.

I am certainly interested in the documentary evidence you have accumulated, and we will be in touch again.

Sincerely,

Jim Elliott


----- Original Message -----
From: Kent L. Irvin
To: David B. Strong
Cc: James V. Elliott
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project

Thank you for your quick response to my email and for the spread sheet. I also want to thank you for pointing out the Arwine sample, which I had not noticed. It is certainly quite distant from the samples I had been studying. I agree that there is much work to be done, but I have always thought it was important to draw conclusions from whatever is available as a basis for further research. I like to think of myself as a records researcher; DNA evidence is very new to me. I cannot cite any web sites for my evidence other than Ybase. Feel free to create a DNA note from my email, and I would be happy to provide you with additional information. ......

Unfortunately the only branch of the border Irvines that can be traced from the sixteenth century with any certainty is that of Bonshaw. I would doubt that any of the available samples are from that branch of the family. Ideally the head of the Bonshaw family would be tested, as well as the current representative of the Irvines of Drum since the two families have claimed to have a common ancestor who lived at the beginning of the fourteenth century. I have read that the representation of the Bonshaw Irvines passed to the Irvings of Ironshore (?) in Canada, I believe, in the middle of the twentieth century.

There were over 100 Irvines in Dumfriesshire at the end of the sixteenth century, and there were 82 Irvines in the 1630 muster roll of Ulster. Most American Irvines are of Ulster descent, and the destruction of Irish records has made it almost impossible to trace the ancestry of eighteenth century immigrants back to 1630. I have perhaps much more evidence to work with than most, and I can provide it as an example of the difficulty of connecting living Irvines to the border reivers through documentary evidence only.

I have no doubt that some genetic mixing has occurred since the sixteenth century, but I believe that most Irvines are descendants of a common ancestor. The Irvines shared in the dramatic population growth experienced by the Grahams, with whom they and the Elliots, Armstrongs, and other border families intermarried. Perhaps the most important document for understanding the population explosion among the Border Reivers is the letter from "Thomas Musgrave to Burghley, on the Border Riders" written in 1583 (Calendar of Border Papers #197). William Graham and his seven sons came from Scotland and settled in the English portion of Eskdale about 1515. Of these Graham brothers Musgrave states:

"Riche Grayme, Fergus his brother, and their brethren, did devyde theire groundes amongest them, and are growen to a hughe comapnie of men, that came of thes fyve brethren of the Grames as followeth: Rich Grame of Netherby and his sonnes, his sonnes sonnes, and their allyaunces with Scotland. Dik Grame called Riches Dik; Water his sonne ...Dave his brother...Will Grame his brother; Sime Grame his his brother; Will Grame second sonne of old Riche, marryed his fyrst wyfe, the larde of Mangertons daughter, and hath now Robin Ellotes sister of Lyddisdall; Joke Grame his sonne called Black Joke; Forge Grame his brother Riche his brother...Frauncis Grame his brother; Robbe Grame his brother; Frauncis Grame his brother; Arche Grayme his brother; Thomas Grame his brother, called coseninge Thomas; Joke Grame his brother called gallotes Joke; Sim Grame his brother; Gorth Grame sone to old Rich did become Scottishe, and dwelleth at the Red Kyrke in Scotland, and was marryed with the Hamiltons. He had by her yssue as followeth: - Riche Grame...Wat Grame his brother; Gorth Grame his brother; Creste Grame his brother; John Grame his brother. Theise and a nomber more that I cannot calle to memorye, came of old Rich of Netherby, besydes his doughter sonnes, which altogeather be more then a hundreth men bysydes women."
There follows Musgrave’s account of the descendants of the six brothers of Old Richie Graham of Netherby - Fergus Graham, Thomas Graham, Hutchon Graham, John Graham "the Braid", Will Graham of Carlisle and Will Graham of the Fald. Musgrave also names fifteen Scottish "Urwens" of note, five of whom were married to English Grahams; three of the leaders of the English Grahams were married to daughers/sisters of the leaders of the Scottish Irvines.

Some insight into the marriage customs of the Borders may perhaps be seen in "The Register of the Privy Council of Scotland Volume XIV, Addenda 1545-1625" (page 317 Miscellaneous Papers 1569):

"Thomas Musgrave, brother to Johne Musgrave, haith maryed one of Fargus Grames dowghters, a wenche of xj years old, who nevir saw hyr before the day of their mariege. - Walter Grame, one of Fargus Grames soones, that was condempned for kylling of Walter Bell and haith remaned in wardd this two yeres for the same, upoun his delyverie shall marye a wensche of Johne Musgrave, being but ix or x yeres old, which maryedge was concluded upon one quarter of a yere sence."
Sorry that this was a bit rushed and I did not necessarily address everything I had in mind. I hope to write again soon.

Sincerely,

Kent Irvin

----- Original Message -----
From: Kent L. Irvin
To: James V. Elliott
Cc: David B. Strong
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project

Dear Mr. Elliott,

Please feel free to pass my e-mail along to any Irvine/Irving participants. I had noticed the Elliott who was a close match to the Irvines. In my research I have developed an interest in all of the surnames of Annandale and Eskdale, including the Eskdale Elliots. They appear to have been well established by the 1450s. I cannot claim to have read a great deal about the Elliots, but it seems to me that the Eskdale branch of the family has probably received relatively little attention. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Sincerely,

Kent Irvin


----- Original Message -----
From: Kent L. Irvin
To: James V. Elliott
Cc: David B. Strong
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:41 PM
Subject: Notes on Major Divisions of the Border Irvines

Discussion: The purpose of these notes is to demonstrate that six distinct and enduring branches of the Border Irvines existed as early as 1490. The heads of these families in 1490 were likely born between 1435 and 1465, with a common ancestor born around 1400. It should be noted that the Irvine lands of Luce and Pennersaugh appear to have adjoined the Bonshaw estate, and that the Irvines of Hoddam and Stakehugh held both held lands of the Lindesays of Wauchope.

(1) Bonshaw: During the course of the sixteenth century there were six generations of the Irvines of Bonshaw. William Irvine of Bonshaw was mentioned in connection with events of 1484 and appears to have died in 1506. Edward Irvine of Bonshaw, son of the deceased William Irvine of Bonshaw, was mentioned in 1506. Christopher Irvine, son of Edward Irvine, had sasine of Bonshaw in 1522 and was said to have died in 1555. His son Edward Irvine of Bonshaw died in 1605 and was succeeded by his grandson William Irvine of Bonshaw, son of Christopher Irvine who died about 1583.

(2) Hoddam: The number of generations of Irvines of Hoddam is difficult to determine because the head of the family was usually named John and nicknamed "the Duke". John Irvine called "the Duke" was mentioned in 1490. In 1504 "Johannis Irwin vocat Duk" acted as surety for William Irwin in Kirtilrig ,and William Irwin in Hoddam was surety for his son William Irwin. In 1517 there was a complaint against "John Irwin, the Duke, and his clan", and a complaint was made against the Irvines of Hoddam in 1528. On 14 June1540 John Irwing, elder, called "the Duke", made a letter of reversion and regress in favor of John Lindesay of Barcloy of the forty-two shillings’ worth of land of old extent of Hoddam. About 1547 Richard Irvine called "Duke’s Richie" was bound to serve the king of England with 126 men under him, with his cousin Herbert Urwin as his pledge. On 20 May 1549 Richard Irvine called Duke’s Richie was granted the ten merk land of Hoddam which included the lands of Knockhill and Whitehill. On 25 October 1569 John Irweing, younger, son to the Duke, bound himself to enter the Duke, John Irweing, elder, as hostage for such number of the Irwingis of Hoddum as should be declared. As a result of this obligation "Johnne Irwing callit the young Duk of Hoddum" was warded in Castle Semple, to be relieved by "Jok Irwing his fader brother" and "ane of Habby [Irvine] of Turnshawis bairnis"(Register of the Privy Council). In 1583 "John Urwen called the Dukes John" was the only member of the Hoddam branch of the family named by Thomas Musgrave among the leading Irvings; he appears as "John the Young Duke" in Moneypeny’s list of the leading Irvings circa 1587. Richard Irwing of Knockhill was a witness on 1 April 1605 and was named in the Register of the Privy Council as "Richard Irwing, Duke of Hoddam" in the same year.

(3) Luce: In Luce Burial Ground there is a memorial "in the form of an inscription on the wall of the only enclosure in the burial ground" which reads: "To the memory of Jaffray Irving who purchased the 3 Markland of Luss from Lord Carlyle Anno -- and John Irving his son and Jaffry Irving his grand-son who obtained a charter of the said lands from Michael, Lord Carlyle Anno. 1542 and also John Irving his son and Jaffray Irving his son who died 18th March 1649 aged 60 years also William Irving his son who died 9th February 1719 aged 96 years also John Irving his son who died 21st April 1734 aged 65 years. Transit gloria mundi" (Memorials of Hoddam Parish, July, 1965, #370). This inscription appears to have been at least partially based on old charters in possession of the Irving family in the middle of the eighteenth century. Since Jeffrey Irving was apparently an adult when he received a charter from Michael, Lord Carlyle, in 1542, his father would likely have been an adult in 1521 and his grandfather and namesake would likely have been an adult by 1500. This is a conservative estimate, so the first Jeffrey Irving may have been born well before 1480. In 1502 Thomas Bell of Kirkonbell was surety for the appearance of Joffra Irwin in court. On 22 April 1506 Jeffry Irwin witnessed the giving of sasine to John Irwin son of David Irwin of Stakehugh of the lands of Skaill with Matthew Irwin, Edward Irwin, John Irwin of Harestanmure, David Irwin of Skaills, William Irwin, and Nichol Irwin. This suggests that Jeffrey Irving was closely related to the other Irving witnesses, who may have included the heads of the Gretna and Pennersaughs Irvine families.

(4) Pennersaughs: Matthew Irving was "dwelling in Pennersax" in 1493, and in 1512 sasine of the lands of Pennersax was given to Simon Carruthers of Mouswald "at the house of Matthew Erwing in Pennersax". In 1515 a complaint was made against "Jenkyn Irwen, Mathew Irwin [his] brother, sons to Mathew Irwin". Either the elder or younger Mathew Irvine could have been the father of Christofer Vrwen of Pounersaughes who submitted to the English with 40 men along with Cuthbert Vrwen of Robgill with 34 in 1547. Another list for the same period names "Christie Irwen, caled Mathos Cristie" with 74 men. This apparent combination of the Irvings of Pennersax and Robgill is one piece of circumstantial evidence that Cuthbert Irving of Robgill was a close relative of Matthew’s Christie. Only the Irvines of Pennersaughs and Robgill appear to have used the name Cuthbert. On 4 December 1552 a respite was granted to "Christe Irwyne [in] Pennarsakkis, John Irwyne, his sone, John Irwyne, brother to the said Christe, Matho Irwyne, bruder sone to the said Christe, Robert Irwyne in Park, Robert Irwyne alias Hobbe Irwyne, his sone, Jonet Hemmell, moder to the said Chrysty" (Register of the Privy Seal IV #1787). On 3 November 1567 Marion Carruthers in Bankis of Mouswald freely resigned her rights in a twenty shilling land called Andersoun’s croft on her marriage to Cuthbert Irvyng son of Cristell Irvyng son to Cristell Irvyng Mathews son (R. C. Reid Collection volume 129, Ewart Library, Dumfries, #73). "Cudbert Irving in Pennersax, callit of the Bankis" and his sons were mentioned in 1611 (Register of the Privy Council). Marion Carruthers of the Banks of Mouswald was possibly a daughter of David Carruthers in Banks, a witness in Dumfries in 1545 (Protocol Book of Mark Carruthers #106). Christopher Irving of Beinks (Banks) executed a deed in Dumfriesshire in 1688.

(5) Stakehugh and Skail: As in the case of Bonshaw, David Irvine of Stakehugh and his descendants appear to have accounted for at least six generations in the sixteenth century. David Erwin was mentioned in connection with Eskdale in 1490. In 1504 David Irwin was fined for failure to appear in court for his lands of Irwin and Hegeland. David Irving of Stakehugh appears to have divided his lands between two sons. John Irving received the five pound land of Skaill and possibly the five pound land of Woodhouselees, and another son appears to have received the five pound land of Irvine with its manor place of Stakehugh and the four pound land of Hegeland or Hagg.

On 22 April 1506 John Irwin son of David Irwin of Stakhewck had sasine of the five pound land of Skaill, and the witnesses included Matthew Irwin, Edward Irwin, John Irwin of Harstanmuir, Jeffrey Irwin, David Irwin of Skaillis, William Irwin, and Nicol Irwin (Mossknow Abstracts). This John Irving of Skaill was dead by 12 November 1526 when a precept of clare constat was issued instructing Symon Irving in Langholm, William Bell in Galwayside, Alexander Irving and Edward Wauch, bailies for Lord Heries, to infeft John Irving, son of the late John Irving of Scalis, in the five pound land of Scalis in the parish of Ranepatrik in Annandale and the five pound land of Vodhousleis in the barony of Kirkanders and parish of Canonbie(Mossknow Abstracts). On 6 October 1561 John Maxwell of Tereglis granted a charter to John Irving grandson and heir of the late John Irwing of Scalis of the five pound land of Scalis and the five pound land of Wodhousleis.(Mossknow Abstracts) John Lord Herries issued a precept of clare constat for infefting Richard Irving alias "Dik" Irving as heir of the late John Irving his father in the lands of Skaillis on 6 December 1606 (Mossknow Abstracts)

In 1528 complaint was made against the "Irwenes of Staikhugh, to the nombr of vj". On 27 July 1532 James V granted Robert Lord Maxwell a charter of lands in Eskdale including "8 acras Hoggislandis noncupat (clamat per Ric Irwin de Staikhuch)" (Register of the Great Seal). Since John Irving of Skaill died in or before 1526, this Richard Irving of Stakehugh may have been either a son or grandson of David Irving of Stakehugh.

In May 1592 there was a complaint by Lord Maxwell and "John Irvinge in Starkhewghe upon Mr. Thomas Carletone for taking said John out of his house in Scotland" (Calendar of Border Papers). Also in 1592 there were complaints by English borderers against "the Yrwens, called the Kanges upon the Stankhewgh" and specifically against Willie Kange, Geordie Kange, Richie Kange (Calendar of Border Papers).

The respite of 24 December 1594 to the laird of Johnstone and his followers for the slaughter of Lord Maxwell in December 1593 named Richie Irwing in Stuikuich, Ekkie Irwing his brother, Williame Irwing callit Cang. In 1607 Eckie’s Richie Irwing in Stankheuch and Willie Irwing, called the Cang, there were denounced as rebels (Register of the Privy Council).

See Below, or see "An Account of The Ancestry of Christopher Irvin (1730 - 1791)", both being an extract from a paper written by Kent Irvin on the possible ancestry of his forebearer Christopher Irvin of Rowan County, North Carolina, who MIGHT be descended from the Irvines of Stakehugh and Skail. See also the Irvine sub-sheet, Kit #23026, and Y-Search EHKTM, and related links.]

----- Original Message -----
From: Kent L. Irvin
To: David B. Strong ; James V. Elliott
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project

For what it is worth, here is an extract from a paper I wrote on the possible ancestry of my ancestor Christopher Irvin of Rowan County, North Carolina (ca.1730?-1791). I believe it helps illustrate the difficulties of making connections between America and Ulster and between Ulster and Scotland.

Sincerely,

Kent Irvin

A biographical account has been preserved in Louisa Boyd’s The Irvines and their Kin (pages 317-319) which includes some information on Christopher Irvin’s ancestry and may help explain why he does not appear to have been heavily involved with his apparent relatives.

"A statement of Ancestry and Tradition relative to his family made by Rev. Samuel Irvine, D. D., of Fredericksburg, Wayne Co., Ohio, reduced to writing by his son, John E. Irvine, in his presence and at his direction, at his home on Thursday, April 4, 1861.
I was born at or near Derg Bridge, County Tyrone, Ireland, on the 22nd day of June, 1786. My parents emigrated to the United States in the next year, leaving Ireland in May and arriving in Philadelphia in August, a month or six weeks before the rising of the Convention that formed the present Constitution of the United States. My father lived, until the next spring, about nine miles west of Lancaster, in Lancaster Co., Pa., and then moved to Kishocoquillas Valley, in Mifflin Co., Pa., where he lived until 1796, when he moved to the farm where he lived and died in Shaver's Creek Valley, Huntingdon Co., Pa. I entered Jefferson College in Gannonsburgh, Pa., in 1810. In November, 1810, I began the study of theology under the instruction of John Anderson, D. D., of Service, Beaver Co., Pa. I was licensed to preach the gospel by the Associate Presbytery of Philadelphia, which met at Carlisle, Pa., for that purpose on the 12th day of August, 1819. After spending a term of some eight or nine months preaching in the Carolinas and Tennessee, I visited this part of Ohio and received a call from Salt Creek, Newman's Creek, Wooster and Mohican churches, which I accepted and was ordained as their pastor by the Presbytery of Chartiers, which met at the Court House in Wooster, Ohio, for that purpose in March 1821. I had spent the fall and winter among those churches. I have ever since been pastor of the Church of Salt Creek, and of the branches, from time to time, united with it.

I had four brothers: John, born in Kishocoquillas Valley, in March, 1789; Christopher, born at same place in 1793; James S., born at Shaver's Creek, June 22, 1799; David, born at Shaver's Creek, September 11, 1802. I had one sister, Elizabeth, born in October, 1795 at Kishocoquillas Valley, Pa. She married Alexander Campbell and left two daughters, Sarah and Elizabeth, the first, wife of John Henderson, of Shaver's Creek, Pa., and the other, of Hugh Lee of Linn Co., Oregon.

My father, James Irvine, born 1761, near Derg Bridge, Tyrone Co., Ireland, was the youngest son of his father by a second marriage - there were fifteen children of his father in all. My father was brought up (his father having died during his own infancy) by his older full brother, John Irvine, who followed the trade of blacksmith near Derg Bridge. I only remember the name of one other of my father's brothers - Christopher Irvine - who emigrated to America and settled on the Yadkin in the southwest part of Rowan Co, North Carolina. He was a young, unmarried, I think, when he emigrated. His oldest childen were as old as my father. He was there long before the beginning of the Revolution. Uncle Christopher left a large family of sons and daughters - in 1819 they were very old. I saw a grandson of Uncle Christopher, named Graham, the proprietor of a hat establishment in Statesville, North Carolina - a fine man, - he gave me the best hat I ever owned. My Uncle John Irvin, of Derg Bridge, had three sons, Christopher, William, and John. Cousin Christopher was a farmer, William was a scholar - he built a hotel at Derg Bridge (or Castle Derg). William's son John once visited me at Fredericksburg and returned to Ireland. He had traveled and peddled in America. I don't know what became of Uncle John's son John.

My grandfather, John Irvine, was twice married, and had a family of fifteen children. He was a blacksmith. His father, my great-grandfather, was likewise called John Irvine and was a blacksmith. He (my great-grandfather) was renowned for his great strength. I have heard father say that he could straighten out a horseshoe - he received the freedom of the City of Londonderry, for what he did in the seige, -- the exact nature of which I do not now recollect. He served throughout the seige in the Derg garrison. Where father was born and bred the people were all Scotch-Presbyterians.

My mother, Sarah, was the third youngest daughter of Samuel Semple. He had a large family and came and settled with them in Kishocoquillas -- Margaret, wife of Hugh Braham, and Elizabeth, wife of James Flemming. My father had a full cousin, General James Irvine, of Carlisle, Pa., who was an old man at the time of the Revolution. Before father left Kishocoquillas Valley I remember that two young brothers, William and John Irvine, came from Ireland and spent a winter in Kishocoquillas. They were fine looking men and I used to admire them for their appearance. My father called them cousins, but I do not know what was the degree of the relationship between them. They both married and settled in Center Co. Gen. James Irvine of Center county is the son of that John Irvine. I know of many other branches of Irvine in this country, but none of whose relationship to us I am clearly informed."

The claims made by Samuel Irvine in his statement are relatively modest, and some can be confirmed from other sources. A biography of Samuel Irvine published seventeen years after his death (History of Wayne County, Ohio, From the Days of the Pioneers and First Settlers to the Present Time. by Ben Douglass. Indianapolis: Robert Douglass, Publisher, 1878, pages 766-7) appears to confirm some of the information in Samuel Irvine’s statement:

Rev. Samuel Irvine, D. D., was born in County Tyrone, Ireland, June 25, 1787, his parents immigrating to America June 25, 1788, two years thereafter settling in Huntingdon county, Pa. He labored on the farm until 1810, when he entered college. In 1815 he attended the theological seminary at Servia, Pa., where he was licensed to preach by the Presbytery of Philadelphia, in 1819. In 1820 he came to Wooster...retaining his relation with the Saltcreek church until his death, April 28, 1861.

A history of Center County, Pennsylvania, published in 1883 (History of Centre and Clinton Counties, Pennsylvania. by John Blair Linn. Philadelphia: Louis H. Everts, 1883, pages 204-5. Includes a Portrait of James Irvin with signature) supplies the following biographical material in support of Samuel Irvine’s statement:

IRVIN, JOHN, emigrated with his brothers William and Guyan from Ireland...
IRVIN, GEN. JAMES, son of John Irvin and Ann Watson, his wife....
IRVIN, GUYAN, came from Ireland in 1793, died March 5, 1850, aged eighty- four;
Elizabeth, his wife, died May 17, 1843, aged seventy-two.

Samuel Irvine’s statements are consistent with Christopher Irvin’s settlement in Rowan County over fifteen years before the start of the Revolutionary War and with his eleven children. Christopher Irvin had several grandsons named Graham, and his land was near Statesville which was mentioned in Samuel Irvine’s statement. It is therefore reasonable to accept Samuel Irvine’s statement that Christopher Irvin’s father lived in Derg Bridge, County Tyrone. However, Samuel Irvine in no way specified the amount of time that the family resided in Derg Bridge. The absence of such a statement or of any other Irish place names suggests that Samuel Irvine was unaware of any other places that the family lived in Ireland. This negative evidence may indicate that the Irvin family had been residents of the Derg Bridge area for a considerable amount of time before the birth of Samuel Irvine’s father in 1761, but it is not proof. However, there is one possible piece of corroborating evidence.

John Beaufin Irving’s "Book of the Irvings" (page 185) contains the following biographical sketch:

Major-General James Irvine, a descendant of the family of Derg Castle, or Derg Bridge, Co. Tyrone, Ireland. Born August 4, 1735; appointed ensign in Captain Atlee’s company in 1760; captain, 1763; lieut.-colonel, 1775; colonel, 1776; major-general, 1782; President of the State of Pennsylvania, 1784-5, and an original trustee of Dickinson College; died at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, April 28, 1819.

Unlike Samuel Irvine’s account, this brief statement was undoubtedly the project of research. It is possible that the author read Samuel Irvine’s statement in Boyd’s book and assumed that all of the Irish Irvins mentioned by Samuel Irvine lived at Derg Bridge. If an independent source exists which connects James Irvine with Derg Bridge, then it is likely that the Irvin family was in the Derg Bridge area before Christopher Irvin was born.

Was Christopher Irvin of Rowan County, North Carolina, born in or near Derg Bridge, County Tyrone? Much of the documentary evidence necessary to answer this question no longer exists. Only two sources survive from the seventeenth century which may provide comprehensive lists of the Irvins in County Tyrone, and no similar sources exist for the eighteenth century.

The John Irvin identified by Samuel Irvine as a participant in the siege of Derry in 1688 was unlikely to have been born much later than 1670. It is therefore possible that the name of his father was recorded in the Hearth Money rolls of the 1660s. These rolls record taxes levied on each hearth, which makes them a list of all but the poorest households. The only complete dated Hearth Money roll which has been preserved for Tyrone is from the year 1665/6. Twelve Irvines were listed. The total can be broken down by barony as follows:

Clogher 6
Omagh 3
Strabane 2
Dungannon 1

Derg Bridge or Castlederg is located in Urney and Ardstraw Parish in Omagh Barony, and the three Irvins listed in Omagh Barony were all residents of townlands near Castlederg. The closest to Castlederg was Christopher Irvin of Learmore in Urney and Ardstraw Parish. Learmore is also near Lisleen in Urney and Ardstraw Parish, where Robert Irvine was listed, and Killen in neighboring Termonamongan Parish, where Andrew Irvine was listed. Lisleen adjoins Killen, and Killen is separated from Learmore by the small townland of Munie, which was not mentioned in the Hearth Money Roll nad may have been created from Learmore. Both Urney and Ardstraw Parsih and Termonamongan Parish belonged to Lucie Countess of Huntingdon at this time, so the parish line was an artificial barrier in the 1660s.

The Subsidy Roll of County Tyrone circa 1665 lists Lucie Countess of Huntingdon as the only taxpayer, and therefore the only landowner, in Termonamongan Parish, and as one of only four taxpayers in Urney and Ardstraw Parish. She may in fact have been the only landowner in Urney and Ardstraw, since it is not clear if the other three taxpayers were charged only with property taxes. The lands of the countess of Huntingdon were sparsely settled in the 1660s. The colonization of Ulster from Great Britain began in 1607. The British settlers, mostly Scots but also English and Welsh, are clearly distinguished in contemporary sources from the Gaelic-speaking natives. Termonamongan Parish had sixty householders with sixty-one hearths in 1665/6, but only twenty of these men had non-Gaelic names. The twenty non-Gaelic households in Termonamongan Parish in 1665/6 were divided among eleven townlands in the easter half of the parish - the half that adjoined Urney and Ardstraw. There were fewer hearths in Urney and Ardstraw Parish, but there were slightly more settlers. Out of fifty-five hearths in the parish, thirty-four belonged to men whose names were not Gaelic. However, these non-Gaelic households were found in only six townlands

The name Christopher Irvin appears in the 1665/6 Hearth Money Roll of Tyrone only in Learmore. The name does not appear among the ten Irwins listed in the 1664 Hearth Money Roll of County Armagh, the eight Irvins listed in County Donegal in 1665, or the three Irwins listed in the 1663 Hearth Money Roll of County Londonderry. No Irvins were listed in the 1663 or 1665 Monaghan Hearth Money Rolls, and only Richard Erwen was listed in the 1664 roll for Cavan. Nineteen different Irvines were named in the 1666 and 1669 Antrim Hearth Money Rolls, but none were named Christopher. No Hearth Money Rolls have survived for County Down, and only fragments survive for County Fermanagh. Christopher Irvin of Rowan County, North Carolina, appears to have come from a large family that had a preference for the name Christopher. In seven out of nine Ulster counties with surviving Hearth Money Rolls, the name Christopher Irvin only appears one time, and that reference is near Castlederg. The Hearth Money Rolls also indicate that Castlederg was one of the few places in those seven counties which could claim to have an extended Irvin family in the 1660s.

Samuel Irvine’s account states that John Irvin participated in the seige of Londonderry, or Derry. During the Revolution of 1688 when James II was replaced by William III,

the Protestant gentry had raised levies in support of William. Tyrconnell had defeated them in a confused engagement known as the ‘break of Dromore’, whereupon those who could not get a sea passage away from the country had crowded as refugees into the garrison town of Enniskillen, in Fermanagh, and into Londonderry." (A History of Ireland, by Peter and Fiona Somerset Fry, pages 159-160)

According to local historian T. P. Donnelly, The ousted James II advanced from the south with his army on his way to the siege of Derry. Some Protestants from the Derg Valley fled to the security of the fortress of Derry. (Donnelly, page 59) If Samuel Irvine’s account is correct, then it is consistent with residence near Castlederg in 1688. During this period most of the Irvins in Ulster seem to have been concentrated in the counties of Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, and Tyrone. Fermanagh refugees might reasonably be expected to have sought refuge in Eniskillen, and the residents of the coastal counties of Antrim and Down would have been able to arrange sea passage.

The initial distribution of Irvins in Ulster is seen the remaining comprehensive document, the muster roll of Ulster compiled circa 1630. This document lists eighty-three Irvins among the 13,092 able-bodied men between the ages of sixteen and sixty in the nine counties of Ulster. The total numbers of Irvins listed in each county in this document is as follows:

Down 33
Fermanagh 17
Tyrone 10
Derry 10
Armagh 9
Antrim 1
Cavan 1
Donegal 1
Monaghan 1

In 1630 Omagh Barony in County Tyrone had even fewer British settlers than in the 1660s. Lord Hastings, husband of Lucie Countess of Huntingdon, was listed in the muster roll with only twenty-five men, none of whom were named Irvin. This is consistent with Pynnar’s survey of 1619 which listed only forty-one men with arms in all of Omagh Barony, thirty of whom were on the lands of Gavelagh & Clonaghmore belonging to Sir John Davies, father of Lucie Countess of Huntingdon. According to a local historian,

The Garvetagh proportion extended on both sides of the River Derg, as far as the boundary of Donegal and included all the land that surrounds Castlederg, except the church (erenagh) lands, that is, Churchtown, or Ballylennon North, on which the town stands, Craigmonaghan, Ballylennon Mercer, Ballylennon Scot and Berrysfort. Those church lands were removed from the erenagh and the catholic church and put into the ownership of the established protestant church. They remained in its possession till the late 19th century when they were sold.(Donnelly, History of Castlederg and Ardstraw West, page 49)

The names of John Davies’ men circa 1631 (The names in the muster roll are Bastards (3); Bird; Bisse; Borrell; C___?; Clarke; Crome; Edwards; Gardner; Lundy; Howard; Jones (2); Moore (2); Moy; Netherwill; Roberts (2); Steward; Taylor; Waterhose; __richand?) bear no relation to the names of the householders in the same area in the 1660s. This is understandable in light of the small number of settlers and the destructive warfare of the 1640s. According to one historian, the rebellion of 1641

brought the rebels control, within a few days of all of Ulster except County Antrim, northern Down, and Londonderry, and isolated castles and forts scattered throughout the western part of the province in Counties Donegal, Tyrone, Londonderry, and Fermanagh. Refugees, Scots and English, fled to the Protestant-held enclaves... (Stevenson, Scottish Covenanters and Irish Confederates, page 98)

One of these isolated castles and forts was Castlederg.

In the war of 1641, Sir Phelim O’Nial besieged the castle of Derg; and although he was driven away with disgrace and considerable loss of men, horses, and ammunition, yet he so greatly injured it that it was never afterwards repaired, and remains a noble pile of ruins on the northern bank of the river. (Donnelly, pages 57-58)

The Tyrone countryside appears to have remained considerably dangerous for British settlers after the end of the rebellion. According to Donnelly,

Many men took to the hills and banded together to raid the colonists’ homes and settlements. At Tyrone Assizes in Dungannon at one time no fewer than one hundred of these Tories were placed in the dock. From a return made to the Protestant bishop of Derry on 28th October 1669 we see that Dr. Buttolph, rector of Urney-Ardstraw, in the Deanery of Mohey ‘was constantly resident in the parish till May last, then was frightened away by the Tories’...In the State Papers of 27 March 1667, Sir George Lane writes: ‘In Ulster, several Tories have been tried and executed, particularly in the county of Tyrone’. On the 3rd June 1668, the Lord Deputy of Ireland and the Council issued a proclamation against the Tories - ‘They appeared in arms against the King’s authority and many of them have committed murders, robberies, and burglaries, stealths and other offences to the terror of the King’s good subjects...they have escaped in woods and mountains, and there stood upon their keeping so as to be contemners of the laws’.(Donnelly, page 58)

Under these conditions it is understandable that many refugees of the 1640s would never return. It is unlikely that outsiders could easily be persuaded to settle in County Tyrone for a considerable period after the 1640s since it was widely believed, whether true or not, that Catholic forces had massacred large numbers of Protestant settlers.

The1665-6 Hearth Money Roll of Urney and Ardstra Parish lists John Hemphill, Christopher Irvin, and George Hemelton (Hamilton) in Learmore Townland. Like the Irvins, there appears to have been an extended Hemphill family in the vicinity of Castlederg since Edward Hemphill was listed in the Hearth Money Roll of Urney and Ardstraw in Balliliney and James Hemphill was listed in the same roll in More. Hamilton is one of the most common names among the British settlers in Ulster, but Hemphill is extremely rare. Of the 13,092 men listed in the muster roll of Ulster circa 1630, only three were named Hemphill. James Hymphil was listed in the muster of Sir William Hamilton in the Barony of Strabane, County Tyrone, and James and Robert Hemphill were listed on the Ironmongers Proportion in County Londonderry. The families of the last two seem to have remained in County Londonderry since the 1663 Hearth Money Roll of Coleraine Barony in that county names James Hemphill and Robert Hemphill Junior in Camus Parish and Alexander Hemphill in Aghadowy Parish. There were no Hemphills in Strabane Barony in the 1665/6 Hearth Money Roll. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the Hemphill family of Urney and Ardstraw Parish was probably founded by James Hemphill who was listed in the muster roll of Sir William Hamilton in Strabane Barony about 1630.

Since a boy of sixteen in 1630 would have been fifty-one years of age in 1665, it is possible that one or more of the Irvins listed in the Hearth Money Roll of Urney and Ardstraw Parish in 1665/6 was also listed in the Ulster muster roll circa 1630. This may perhaps even be likely if the three households of 1665/6 consisted of a father and two sons. If short distance moves are to be considered more likely than long distance moves, then it is perhaps most likely that the Irvins listed in Urney and Ardstraw Parish belonged to a family listed in the muster roll of County Tyrone. Of the nine Irvins listed in Tyrone, only Clogher with five and Strabane with two had more than a single Irvin. The two Irvins in Strabane Barony were both listed in the muster roll of Sir William Hamilton, whose muster has already been noted as including James Hemphill. They were Francis Irwin, armed with a sword and a snaphance, and Christopher Irwin, who was armed with a sword and pike. James Hymphil was also armed with a sword and pike. Since Francis Irwin, who had a type of firearm called a snaphance, was better armed than Christopher Irwin, he was possibly older than Christopher Irwin. There was no other Christopher Irvin listed in the muster roll of County Tyrone. If Sir William Hamilton’s Christopher Irwin was in Urney and Ardstraw Parish in 1665/6, then Francis Irwin was perhaps likely to have been his father based on the consideration that Christopher Irvin was not likely to have been significantly older than his early or mid twenties circa 1630 and that Francis Irwin was able to arm himself better. The circumstantial evidence suggests that the Irvin and Hemphill families in Urney and Ardstraw Parish in the 1660s were living on Sir William Hamilton’s lands in Strabane Barony about 1630. This would suggest that Christopher Irvin of Learmore was the founder of the Irvins of Castlederg, which would support the contention that Christopher Irvin’s family favored the name Christopher in the seventeenth century.

If Christopher Irvin of Learmore was listed in the 1630 muster roll of County Tyrone, he was unlikely to have been significantly older than the minimum age of sixteen. His name is therefore unlikely to have appeared in any records before 1630. The majority of Scottish settlement in Ulster occurred before 1620 (Stevenson, page 11). Any attempts to connect Christopher Irvin to Scotland would have to make use of the proposed father/son relationship of Francis Irvin and Christopher Irvin. If Christopher Irvin was born between 1609 and 1614, making him between the ages of sixteen and twenty-one in 1630, then his father would likely have been over sixteen as early as 1605. Any reference to the name Francis Irvin in Ulster or Scotland between 1600 and 1630 is therefore of interest.

According to the Printed Calendar of Patent Rolls of Ulster, on 14 July 16th James I (circa 1618) George Erivine and Francis Erwine were pardoned. The name George Irwin appears seven times in the muster roll of Ulster circa 1630, and the name Francis Irwin appears five times. However, the names do not appear together in any location. There is no evidence to suggest that the Francis Erwine who was pardoned was more likely to have been the Francis Irwin listed in Strabane Barony about 1630 than any of the other four men of the same name listed in the Ulster muster roll. There is also no evidence that the George and Francis Irvin who were pardoned were related, although the fact that they were apparently pardoned together suggests that they were. If they were in fact related then one or both of them died or left Ireland before 1630, or was simply overlooked in the muster roll. No other references to the name Francis Irvin have been found in Ulster before 1630.

Three references have been found in Dumfriesshire in Scotland that fit the profile developed for the Francis Irvin named in the muster roll of County Tyrone in 1630. Two of these references show that another Irving family favored the name Francis. On 27 March 1602 Christopher Irving formerly in Guilielands called "Black Christie" made a charter of lands in the burgh of Annan to his son Edward’s son Francis Irving.(Reid Abstracts Volume 121, Moriquat Charters, 12.) Another Francie Irving, son of Gilbert Irving of Wysbie, was a fugitive on 26 August 1605 (Register of the Privy Council). Both Gilbert Irving of Wysbie and "Black Christie" were brothers of Edward Irving of Bonshaw. "Black Christie" had a son named John Irving who son, another Christopher Irving, purchased the manor of Rossguire in County Fermanagh. In the 1630 muster roll of County Fermanagh, Christopher Irwin, John Irwin, and Francis Irwin were listed in Mr. Flowerdew’s manor of Rossguire, and William Irwin, James Irwin, and Francis Irwin were listed in Sir Gerard Lowther’s neighboring property which was eventually also purchased by Christopher Irving. It is likely that the two men named Francis Irwin in the Fermanagh muster roll were relatives of "Black Christie" and Gilbert Irving of Wysbie if they were not in fact their sons.

The third Dumfriesshire reference is dated 24 May 1604/7, when George Irwing, called Gibb’s George, and Francis Irwing his son were declared to be rebels. In 1607 Geordie Irwing, called Gibb’s Geordie, John Irwing, called Gibb’s Johnne, and Cristie Irwin, called Gibb’s Cristie were denounced as rebels. In 1608 George Irwing called Gibb’s Geordie the Rannigald was mentioned. This Francis Irving is clearly connected to a George Irving as in the Ulster pardon. Is he likely to have settled in County Tyrone?

The male name Francis seems to have been something of a novelty in sixteenth century Scotland that can be traced to the marriage in of Queen Mary to Francis, son and heir of the king of Francis, in April 1558. There were therefore probably few adult males with the name in Scotland before 1580. An Act of the Scottish Parliament of 1585 provides a fairly comprehensive list of Irvings in Dumfriesshire. This Act names at least eighty-three Irvings, including two men named Francis Irving, two men named Geordie or George Irving, and five men named Christopher Irving. Each of the two Francis Irvings were listed with their fathers, suggesting that they were born in the 1560s. Francie Irving of Gretnahill named in the Act was probably the Francie Irving of Gretnahill executed in 1606. His father was Walter or Wat Irving, and Wat was a favorite name of the Irvings of Gretnahill. Mathie or Mathew Irving of Gretnahill was also named in the 1585 Act. In the 1630 muster roll of the Draper’s Proportion in County Londonderry included Francis Irwin, Walter Irwin, and Mathew Irwin, likely members of the same family. The large Gretnahill family could have easily produced another Francis Irving over the age of sixteen by 1630 named in honor of Francie Irving of 1585.

The only other Irving family shown to favor the name Francis by the 1585 Act was the Irvings of Kirkpatrick. Francie Irving of Kirkpatrick had a brother named Walter. If they were over sixteen years of age in 1585 as is probable, then they were over sixty in 1630 and should not have been listed in a muster of men between the ages of sixteen and sixty. However, the Irvings of Kirkpatrick should be considered a possible source of the Irwins on the Draper’s Proportion in County Londonderry in 1630.

The Gretnahill and Kirkpatrick Irvings do not appear to have used the names George or Christopher. Based on the limited evidence for the five men named Francis Irwin in the 1630 Ulster muster roll, Francis Irving, son of Gibb’s George, is perhaps most likely to have settled in County Tyrone or County Down if he in fact did settle in Ulster. The evidence for the family of Gibb’s George may tend to support the identification with Francis Irwin of County Tyrone.

Also named in the Act of 1585 were "geordie Jon and Christie Irvingis sonis to gib in blakbaksyd". If the sons of Gibb Irving were young men in their twenties in 1585 as is suggested by their joint reference and their continued activity some twenty-two years later, then a birth date in the 1580s or 1590s is likely for Francis Irving, son of Gibb’s George. That would mean that Francis Irving was himself a young man in his twenties during the period of time proposed for the birth date of Christopher Irvin of Learmore. The evidence shows that the names George Irvin and Francis Irvin were relatively rare, and they have only been found in combination in the Ulster pardon about 1618 and in the father and son combination Gibb’s George Irving and his son Francis Irving about 1607. If these two combinations represent the same father and son, then the failure of George Irving to appear in the 1630 muster roll after his pardon is understandable. If he was not already dead in 1630 he would certainly have been over the maximum age for military service of sixty. If Francis Erwine of the pardon is to also be equated with the Francis Irwin listed in Sir William Hamilton’s muster in Strabane Barony, then theory that Christopher Irvin was his son is supported by the fact that Gibb’s George Irving had a brother with the somewhat rare name of Christopher Irving.

George Irving’s father Gilbert or "Gibb" Irving was probably an adult in the 1560s or earlier. The Act of Parliament of 1585 named twenty-two Irvings in Eskdale, the eastern district of Dumfriesshire, including Gibb’s three sons. Most of these were in the vicinity of Stakehugh, known as "the manor place of Irewyn" - that is, the chief dwelling place on the five pound land of Irving. In 1528 there is a reference to the "the Irwenes of Staikhugh, to the nombr of vj". The founder of the Irving family in Eskdale appears to have been David Irwin who was summoned to appear in court in Dumfries in 1504 for the suits of his lands of Irwin and Hegeland. Since his son John Irving of Skaills seems to have been an adult in 1500, David Irving was probably born in or before the 1450s. The growth of his family to at least six adults in 1528 and to twenty-two adults in 1585 is not unlikely. The existence of only thirteen Irving households in Eskdale in the 1691 hearth roll of Dumfriesshire is consistent with the departure of large numbers of Irvings, perhaps including Gibb’s Geordie and his son Francis, for Ulster in the first two decades of the seventeenth century. [See Stakehugh and Skail, above.]


(6) Gretna: Johne of Irwin of Hartstanemur was mentioned on 23 February 1489/90. Harstanemure is probably modern Hailstonemoor which adjoins the lands of Surrone which were held by the Irvings of Gretna in 1585 if not earlier. On 22 April 1506 John Irwin of Harstanmuir and six other Irvines witnessed the giving of sasine to John Irvine, son of David Irvine of Stakehugh, of the five pound lands of Skaill in the parish of Ranepatrick, now part of the modern parish of Gretna.

John Irving of Harestanemoor was possibly the John or "Jok" Irvine who was the father of a certain Jok’s Will Irvine who was the ancestor of the Irvines of Gretnahill and a Richard Irvine called "Lang Ritchie" who was the ancestor of the Irvines of Kirkpatrick. If Jok’s Will and John of Harestanemoor were not in fact indentical, then Jok’s Will was at least a younger contemporary of John of Harestanemoor. The register of the Privy Council records that on 22 October 1569 "Edward Irwing of Kirkpatrick and Watt Irwing of Gratnohill comperand in presens of my Lord Regentis Grace, the said Edward enterit plege for himself the said Watt and thair haill branche of the Irwings of Gratno - Jok Irwing of the Floshe and Jok Irwing of Steilhill except, quhome thai promeis to hald furth and nocht to suffer thame haif stob or staik within thair boundis, or quhair thai may lett" (Register of the Privy Council).

On 6 November 1569 it was ordered that Edward Irwing of Kirkpatrick and John Johnstone of the Quays be imprisoned at Borthwick, to be exchanged at some specified time in the future. Edward Irwing of Kirkpatrik was to be exchanged for Watte Irwing in Gratnohill or Willie Irwing in Gratnohill (Register of the Privy Council). On 18 August 1573 surety was found for Edward Irving called Lang Richie’s Edward and "Williame Lord Borthuik answerand be James Erll of Mortoun, Regent to oure Soverane Lord, declarit that the saidis Edward Irwing and Johnne Johnnstoun of the Quais wer lettin to libertie upoun band" (Register of the Privy Council).

In 1579 Lord Maxwell and the laird of Johnstone appeared before the Privy Council and obligated themselves to re-enter certain Border pledges if any persons for whom they lay "sall not be answerabill to the lawis in tyme cuming" Among the pledges released at Johnstone’s request was "Walter Irvin, sone to Jokis Will" (Register of the Privy Council). In 1581 the Privy Council recorded that "Although Wattie Irwing, son of Jokkis Will, pledge, had been released upon the suit of Johnne Johnnstoun of that Ilk, who had become cautioner in L2000 for his re-entry, ‘gif ony of the personis quhom the said Wattie lay pledge for suld not be answerable to the lawes thairefter’ yet ‘trew it is that sindrie personis for quhome the said Wattie Irwing lay pledge hes not bene answerable to the lawis sen the letting of him to libertie in maner foirsaid, bot hes bene fugitive thairfra, and in speciall John Irwing, callit of Steilhill, quha has committit sindrie attemptatis to the troubling of the commoun quietnes of the cuntre.’ Accordingly, Johnnstoun, having neither appeared nor entered the said Wattie Irwing according to the charge given to him, is decerned to have incurred the said penalty of L2000; and letters of horning, poinding and distraining are directed against him for exacting the said sum (Register of the Privy Coucil).

According to C. L. Johnstone, William Johnstone of Newbie who died in or before 1565 "leased Sarkbrig, Conheath, and Graitney Hill to Richard Irving, probably when he was in great need after the English invasion" of 1547 (History of the Johnstones, page 68) This Richard Irvine was probably the "Lang Richie" who was the father of Edward Irvine of Kirkpatrick. The description of Edward Irving of Kirkpatrick as "Lang Richie’s Edward" is confirmed by Moneypeny's Chronicle, published about 1587, which lists the "chief men" of Annandale. The following "Irwingis" were named:

Edward of Bonschaw,
Lang Richies Edward,
John the young Duke,
Chrystie Cothquhat,
Willie of Graitnayhill

An undated assurance by the laird of Johnstone from the 1580s abstracted by William Fraser and published in his "Annandale Family Book of the Johnstones" lists "Leonard Irwing in Cawarttisholme, brother to Watty Irwing of Gretnohill...Watte Irving of Gretnohill, with nine others, brothers, sons and servants...Will Irwing of Gretnohill is responsible for twenty-one other persons, brothers, sons and others, including Edward Irwing of Gretnohill with four brothers and sons, and Ryche of Gretnohill with four servitors...Johne Irving of Steilhill, with brothers, sons and servants, eight in number".

A description of "The Urwens and theire alleyaunce with England downe to the Rad Kyrcke" by the Englishman Thomas Musgrave written in 1583 and abstracted in the Calendar of Border Papers begins with the Irvines of Gretna:

The Lord of Gratnay marryed Forgus Grams doughter.
Watt Urwen of Gratney hill marryed Robin Fosters doughter.
Riche Urwen of Greatney hill;
Edward Urwen of Gratnaye
Mongo Urwen marryed William Grames dougter of Levne.
Will Urwen of Sark bridge marryed Littell Thome Graymes doughter.
Will Urwen of Readhall.
Edward Urwen of Kyrke Patrick.


The Dutch Arwines/Arnwines:

----- Original Message -----
From: David B. Strong
To: Kent L. Irvin ; James V. Elliott
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project

Hello Kent...

Thanks for your interesting message. I took some time to examine the .... kits and entered them into a spreadsheet, [see] the "Irvine Spreadsheet". I think there are at least three different lineages involved to this point. They MAY have had a common ancestor in the 14th or 15th century, but it is still open for further testing and research before you can say that your Assumed Irvine Ancestral Haplotype is the root of each of the lineages. Participant Arwine, ESVN6 is very far away from the mode and I suspect a different root for him.

......

Regards
Dave Strong


----- Original Message -----
From: Kent L. Irvin
To: David B. Strong
Cc: James V. Elliott
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: ESVN6

I would tend to identify ESVN6 (Last name: Arwine; Variant last names: Erwin Irwin Arnwine) as originating outside the Scottish border region. There are Irvins who claim descent from Dutch Arnwines, as shown by:
http://www.jowest.net/Genealogy/John/Arnwine/Arnwine.htm
http://www.jowest.net/Genealogy/John/Arnwine/ArnwineTree.htm

This would seem to be consistent with the evidence I have seen for the ancestor documented for ESVN6, John Erwin Jr. The DAR records for John Erwin Jr. suggest that his descendants have always considered themselves to be Arwins. John Erwin Jr's father John Erwin Sr. would appear to have been the "John Arewin" listed in the Rowan County, NC tax list of Jonathan Hunt for the year 1768 followed by "Willum Arewin & sones". Hunt's list was the modern Davie County area, and the names in the list appear to be mostly English and Welsh with a few Germans. The other Irvines in the early Rowan County tax lists generally lived among other Scots-Irish immigrants. The Scots-Irish tended to congregate together. I would also suggest that "Arwin" is a bit of a stretch phonetically if the person in question is actually an Irvine. My name has been spelled many ways, but I don't recall anyone ever starting with an "A".

The existence of a Dutch surname similar to Irvine is also consistent with the appearance of an Albertus Arwin (a German/Dutch name) in the tax lists of Chester County, Pennsylvania, in the 1730s in Coventry township, an area not associated with Scots-Irish Settlement. In spite of the existence of some Dutch Arwins/Arnwines who Anglicized their names to Erwin or Irvin, I would still tend to believe that the great majority of Irvines in colonial America were of Scottish border origin.

Kent

Discussion and Analysis of DNA Results:

Refer, again, to the Message From: Kent L. Irvin
To: James V. Elliott
Cc: David B. Strong
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:55 PM
Subject: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project [Attempts to sort the lineages based on available DNA data]

An Edited Version appears here:
The Border Irvines were divided into six major branches by about 1490:
Bonshaw,
Hoddam,
Pennersax,
Stakehugh/Skaill,
Gretna, and
Luce.

William Irvine of Bonshaw, John Irvine called "the Duke", Matthew Irvine of Pennersax, David Irvine of Stakehugh, John Irvine of Harstanemoor, and Jeffrey Irvine of Luce were probably all born between 1435 and 1465. [See Above for further discussion of each branch].
In 1585 these men appear to have had over 100 male Irvine descendants. The ... available Irvine samples suggest ... that the common ancestor of all six branches of the family (who was probably born around 1375/1400) had the following values for the markers used in the [DNA] study, with the possible exception of the value for DYS391 which is 11 in [some] samples and 10 in the [others]:

[Editor's Note, See the two "Assumed Irvine Ancestral Haplotypes" in the Irvine DNA Results Spreadsheet]:
[Ed. Note: Sequence is:
DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388 DYS 439 DYS 389-1 DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448 DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b DYS 464c DYS 464d i]
Assumed HaploType (AHT) #1: 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 20 30 15 16 17 17 and
Assumed HaploType (AHT) #2: 13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 20 30 15 16 17 17

[The Irvine samples with (DYS391=11) are AHT #1. The ones including (DYS391=10) are AHT #2. At this point it is not possible to say whether one or the other of the two AHT's is the "senior" lineage... all that is significant is that one haplotype was distinguisted in the data before the other.]

Note also, an Original Message From: Kent L. Irvin
To: David B. Strong
Cc: James V. Elliott
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 7:59 PM
Subject: Irvine GATA-H4 or TAGA-H4 [part of the 26-37 markers, not shown above]

I just received my certificate from DNA Heritage and noticed the following comment:

"GATA H4 now becomes TAGA H4 in line with NIST recommendations...Important note: Family Tree DNA customers who have had 37-marker results which include this marker WILL HAVE TO ADD 1 to their GATA H4 values to update to the newer TAGA H4 system in Ybase and thus be directly comparable with DNA Heritage and Relative Genetics customers..."
[This issue has been addressed in the spreadsheets and relevant adjustments have been made]
----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: David B. Strong Cc: James V. Elliott Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project [Attempts to sort the lineages based on available DNA data]
..... Here is my basic question - given the 25-marker standard used for the Elliot and Border Reivers DNA project, what is the expected range of genetic distances from a common ancestor who lived 600 years ago? Zero to one? No more than two? Less than four? Suppose there was a single common ancestor for the border Irvines who was born in 1400. I was born in 1966, which gives a period of 566 years. It seems that I could be a genetic distance of one away from the hypothetical founder of one lineage and two from the founder of another. If mathematically speaking my sample is reasonably close to both lineages, then the genetic differences between the two hypothetical founders could represent a very early - say fifteenth or early sixteenth century - mutation which split one lineage into two.

Unfortunately the only branch of the border Irvines that can be traced from the sixteenth century with any certainty is that of Bonshaw. I would doubt that any of the available samples are from that branch of the family. Ideally the head of the Bonshaw family would be tested, as well as the current representative of the Irvines of Drum since the two families have claimed to have a common ancestor who lived at the beginning of the fourteenth century. I have read that the representation of the Bonshaw Irvines passed to the Irvings of Ironshore (?) in Canada, I believe, in the middle of the twentieth century.
.....
Kent


----- Original Message ----- From: David B. Strong To: Kent L. Irvin Cc: James V. Elliott (Border Reivers Project) Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Elliot and Border Reivers DNA Project [Attempts to sort the lineages based on available DNA data]
Kent... ..... here are a few thoughts: First, re probabilities of an ancestor who lived ~600 years ago, if one assumes 25 years per generation, that would be 24 generations ago; if you assume 30 years per generation, that would be 20 generations ago. I suggest you take a look at Dr. David L. Roper's webpage, Y-Chromosome Markers Probabilities , and see: Y-Chromosome Markers for Many Families: Note, Dr. Roper's discussion only goes to 10 generations, but it will give you some idea of the possibilities. Also, take a look at Computing Genetic Distances, and, you can play a bit with the Time to MRCA Calculator, Time to Most Recent Common Ancestry Calculator, Using Genetic Marker Similarity Between Two Individuals. ... Regards Dave Strong
----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: David B. Strong Cc: James V. Elliott Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:36 PM
Subject: Mutation Rates
Dave, Thanks for the links. A few years ago I had a test done by Oxford Ancestors, but it was a dead end because they had no database for comparison. That's why I still consider myself new at this. However, the "Y-Line Appendix" provided by Oxford Ancestors makes the claim for their 10-marker test that over 30 generations, or about 600 years, there is a 36% chance of 1 mutation, 30% chance of no mutations, 22% chance of two mutations and a 9% chance of 3 mutations. This influenced my thinking that a group of seven Irvines (25 markers each, not just 10) with only one or two mutations from a proposed common ancestor could represent a single "lineage". Of course I cannot confirm that the Oxford assertion is correct, and even if it is the probabilites associated with different markers would not be exactly the same. Kent

----- Original Message ----- From: David B. Strong To: Kent L. Irvin Cc: James V. Elliott Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Mutation Rates
Kent... FYI, Family Tree DNA [hosted a conference the weekend of Oct.30-31, 2004] in Houston, Texas. One of the agenda items is presentation of the results of an in-depth mutation rate study sponsored by them (meaning, I think, that they paid for the salary of a grad student who did the research) at the Univ. of Arizona. One of the things I hope will come of the conference is a better idea of the rate at which particular markers mutate. To this point, there has been a "rule of thumb", derived from a statistical probability analysis, that the rate of mutation in 12 markers is "one per 500 years." It seems to me that the more markers one tests for, the higher the likelihood one will observe mutations. Personally, my observations in a couple of years of administering DNA studies lead me to believe the "one per 500 year rule" is too low. Further, certain markers definitely seem to move more rapidly than others; some seem to "jump" two, three, even four steps at a time. There has been a great deal of interest in the mutation rates for the various markers. Take a look at the two different sets of mutation rates identified for various markers on the spreadsheet I sent you.... you may see what others have estimated and/or found. If the scientific types can come to some idea of the actual rates, they may be able to come up with something more definitive in terms of estimating time to a Most Recent Common Ancestor depending on application of the mutation rates to the various markers under consideration. Regards Dave

[Ed.Note: there are at least two significant points coming out of the referenced DNA Conference... First, FTDNA now offers a revised "2005 Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree", a wall chart which can be purchased through direct order off their website. Second, FTDNA introduced "FTDNATiP"...


----- Original Message ----- From: David B. Strong To: Kent L. Irvin Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Irvine Surname Project ...
Hi Kent...
.....
About interpretation of results.... 36 of 37 is too restrictive. There has been a rule of thumb that allows one mutation in 500 years for a 12 marker set of results. I think the mutation rates on certain markers are faster than that, and the rule needs modification. Indeed, FTDNA is moving in that direction with the results of their recent mutation rate study. See the link on my Irvine page to Mutation Rate Comparisons: http://worldfamilies.net/marker.htm There is a good discussion there, and an indication that in 37 markers, one should expect 5 mutations in the time frame. See also Fred Marsh's commentary http://marshdna.arrrg.org/DNAinfo.htm Note, you have to scroll down to section 5 or 6 or there abouts to find his relevant discussion.

As to goals and objectives... I think the project is certainly helping sort out and identify Border surname haplotypes, which in turn is useful in focusing further genealogical paper research. As long as everyone understands that DNA testing is for the purpose of providing additional, useful, clarifying, evidence and does not by itself "prove" relationships or identify ancestry, then you should be ok. One observation re the Irvine data... so far there ... is a strong Celtic influence in the results... consistent with one of the things I read about origins of the "Border" Irvines in the "my clan" discussion linked on "my" Irvine spreadsheet. To me, that tends to indicate that some of the accepted "mythology" about ancestral origins, while subject to testing for evidence, has solid substance in historical "fact". ..... Dave


----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: James V. Elliott; David B. Strong Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: Fwd: Comparisons
I think the probabilities of relationships within the last 600 years are of special interest, but I am unsure how to present the data in a useful form since the comparisons in the forwarded message below are to my kit 23026 rather than to the assumed ancestral haplotypes. Any thoughts on using this kind of data to assign dates to assumed ancestral haplotypes? That seems to be the logical next step after identifying the haplotype. My original thought was that since we have an essentially random set of Irvine data, we are already likely to have representatives of at least two different branches of the Irvine family I identified in my notes. If that is true, then the ancestral Irvine haplotypes date to at least as early as the middle of the fifteenth century. I believe the most recent common ancestor of the Irvines found on the border in the fifteenth century was probably born 1375/1400, which fits the probabilities for a relationship within the last 600 years. Kent

----- Original Message ----- From: James V. Elliott To: Kent L. Irvin Cc: David B. Strong Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: Comparisons
Kent,
I have looked at the seven Irvine/Irving entries in Ysearch tonight, and have confirmed to my satisfaction what I have felt for a while. All of the entries are probably related. The modal 12 marker values appear to be 1 step off WAMH, with the difference expressed by the DYS385b value of 15. A few have a DYS391 value of 10, but the one of these that has been tested to 37 markers resembles other 25 and 37 marker Irvine/Irving haplotypes regardless whether the DYS391 value is 10 or 11. Also, at least one other haplotype has a DYS389ii value of 30, rather than 29. But, beyond these differences, the similarity among the haplotypes is clear.

You are probably right to assume that the common ancestor of the Irvine/Irving participants dates to the late middle ages, but it is clear to me that they all belong ultimately to the same family. The Irvine/Irving sample thus far is a ... lot more coherent, genetically, than those for most other Border clans.
.....

Sincerely,
James V. Elliott
Group Administrator
Elliott (And Border Reivers) DNA Project


----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: James V. Elliott; David B. Strong Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 10:23 PM
Subject: Irvine Ancestral Haplotype
I was reviewing some old documents from Oxford Ancestors which inspired me to rearrange my data to minimize the number of mutations for markers 1-12. When I had previously used my own haplotype as the "original", the distances were almost all 0 or 2. When Y9AYA is used as the original, the other eight probable border Irvines have a distance of 1:

Y9AYA/13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=0
AURFX/13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 11 13 13 29/distance=1
PSU2X/13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 30/distance=1
EHKTM/13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=1
94MCS/13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=1
CFQMM/13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=1
WKXXJ/13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=1
YZQP7/13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=1
ZSGA5/13 23 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29/distance=1

The use of Y9AYA as a single ancestral Irvine haplotype seems to be a better "fit" to me than an EHKTM-based interpretation or two equal ancestral haplotype values. Y9AYA has the greatest probability of relationship to me even though it does not appear to be on my "branch". This may be because it has fewer mutations and looks the most like the common ancestral haplotype. Selecting Y9AYA as the "original" also makes the Shetland Irvine less distant from the ancestral haplotype- either 3 or 4 depending on whether one mutation is counted as a double jump or not. If the Shetland Irvine and the border Irvines share a deeper ancestry than 300 years, perhaps ZSGA5 represents the "original" common value since no sample, either Border or Shetland, is greater than 2 from it.

Kent

----- Original Message ----- From: David B. Strong To: Kent L. Irvin ; James V. Elliott Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Irvine Ancestral Haplotype
.... Kent.... I don't think you can make the assumption that any one of the various haplotypes you have identified is a "pure" unmutated Irving. Even using the old "one mutation in 500 years" rule of thumb, when you are talking about tracing the ancestral haplotype back to the 14th or 15th century, it seems fairly straight-forward that each of the test subjects will exhibit at least one mutation. Further, looking at the Mutation Rate info available, and realizing that some of the markers mutate more frequently, it is quite possible that some subjects will exhibit "extra" mutations. I think the best one can do is try to identify one or more modal haplotypes. This is what I have tried to do in identifying the two major groups of Irvines distinguished on my webpage. I think the #2 AHT identified on my webpage does probably identify the "Border Irvines", and the Shetland Islands Irvine probably does spring from this early root. Note that two of his three mutations from the #2 AHT occur on faster moving markers, DYS 385b, and DYS 439. It may be that #16422 is descended from the same root ancestor as AURXF, and that both are in turn descended from some part of the #2 AHT haplotype. Regards Dave Strong

----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: David B. Strong Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Irvine Ancestral Haplotype
I did not mean to imply such a thing as a "pure" unmutated Irvine. I'm only looking at the first 12 markers. Since some key participants have apparently decided to quit after testing only 12 markers, I had thought it would be a good idea to put some thought into how to analyze their data.

I believe that I agree with you in principle. If the history of the Irvines went back about 600 years or a little more than that, then the best we could do would be to come up with a set of haplotypes dating back about 600 years. But if the Border Irvines and the Shetland Irvines shared an ancestry deeper than 600 years, the best we can do should be to derive a set of common Border/Shetland haplotypes that existed 700+ years ago. At this point I am only looking at the data to see if such a deep connection is reasonable. .... Thanks, Kent


----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: David B. Strong ; James V. Elliott Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 1:36 PM
Subject: Common Irvine Haplotype

I had previously suggested that a common Border/Drum/Orkney ancestor would have had DYS391=10. T2UH5's results seem to support this theory. Suppose that William Irvine, first laird of Drum, had the following haplotype:

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

The genetic distances from this haplotype are as follows:

T2UH5 - 1
79AYA - 1
EHKTM (me) - 2

Note that I have DYS391=11 while T2UH5 and 79AYA have 10. Border Irvines appear to be roughly half 10 and half 11, which suggests to me a common DYS391=11 ancestor living on the borders around the year 1500 (around the time the family noticably split into branches) whose father was DYS391=10. I would call that an "early" mutation given it probably occured less than 150 years after William Irvine of Drum died. Two mutations in about 700 years seems reasonable to me if the first was near the common ancestor's lifetime.

Of course additional tests could change all of this, but I think it is a good idea to try to interpret what you have and reinterpret when new data is available. Comments/suggestions would be appreciated.

Kent

----- Original Message ----- From: James V. Elliott To: Kent L. Irvin Cc: David B. Strong Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Common Irvine Haplotype

Kent,
I agree with the substance of your assessment. A DYS391 value of 10 may be the ancestral value - especially in view of the corrected Orkney Irvine results, and also since STR markers are twice as likely to gain repeats rather than lose them, making DYS390=11 more likely to be downstream rather than ancestral.

Time will tell, once we get more results.

Sincerely,
Jim

----- Original Message ----- From: Kent L. Irvin To: James V. Elliott; David B. Strong Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Common Irvine Haplotype

Jim,
Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't aware that gains were twice as likely as losses, but I will certainly keep it in mind in the future.

I have DYS391=11. Of course my father could have been DYS391=10, but in general there is such an even split between 10 and 11 that I would think the great majority of Irvines with DYS391=11 probably descend from a single DYS391 ancestor. My interpretation of the documentary evidence is that the Irvines originally split into two branches before 1450 - Bonshaw/Pennersaughs/Luce and Stakehugh(Eskdale)/Gretna, with the Hoddam family belonging to one of the two branches. By the 1490s these two were further divided into six branches. So in theory if a documented Bonshaw descendant tests as DYS391=10, then DYS391=11 may suggest descent from either the Irvines of Gretna or the Irvines of Eskdale (Stakehugh was the chief possession of the Irvines in Eskdale). Note that the apparent Elliott crossover is DYS391=11, and if the crossover occurred in Scotland then Eskdale would perhaps be most likely since it was the only part of Dumfriesshire inhabited by both Irvines and Elliotts in any significant numbers. ....

Kent



There continue to be additions and corrections to the DNA database regarding the Border Reivers Clan Irvine members. As these occur updated and revised Clan Irvine Spreadsheets are posted at: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/irvine.htm . This general analysis and discussion of the Irvine history and genealogy, developed primarily with Kent Irvin in consultation with others, posted at: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/kent_irvine.htm will be updated from time to time. Additionally, Jim Elliott has developed a page discussing the family history of the various participants in the Irvine group, which is updated as new data becomes available. See: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_irvings.htm.

Regards
Dave Strong
Co-Administrator, Border Reivers DNA Project



Return to the Irvine sub-sheet
Go to Discussion of specific Irvine/Irving DNA Results, by Jim Elliott.
Return to the Border Reivers "R1b" DNA Spreadsheet, or
Return to the Various Border Reiver Haplogroups and subclades DNA Spreadsheet, by Dave Strong
Return to the Border Reivers DNA Spreadsheet Directory
Join the Border Reivers DNA Project at FTDNA , or
Join the Clan Irvine DNA Project at FTDNA , in association with the Border Reivers DNA Project.