What If  









 Updated:Sunday, 09-Sep-2018 03:08:54 MDT
GUTZMAN FAMILY GENEALOGY
AND THE BRICK WALL I HAVE COME
UP AGAINST

     I seem to have found myself with to many questions lately, so thought I would create this page in hopes that a few interested family members might help me think it through a little. We know an awful lot about  Daniel and his descendants very little of his ancestors.  Now, I know that I should be satisfied with all of the wonderful information I have thus far but, I'm not.  I just feel that there is a lot yet to be learned about his and Rosa's families in Prussia. Having received a little information from Keith Andrews I think there may be some I haven't  had up to now.  So, I am going to go through what we have step by step and throw out some "What If's"  and see what you think.  
 
PLACES
All of the places we have in Prussia are in the County of Oppeln, located in lower Silesia (kind of like a country with in a country).  Of course, we have to add the confusion of the fact that since the fall of the German Empire during W.W.I all of  this area was given back to Poland and now have Polish names.  But, for the time being I am going to stick to the Prussian names.

Let's start with Daniel's birth record:
You will notice that it states that he was born in GRUNDORF in the county (kreis) of Oppeln in 1849.  However, the document is signed and dated in 1869.  It is undersigned at Carlsrue (another city in Oppeln).  Giving me the feeling that birth records and such might be found in Carlesrue Church  Registry.  

Then we have Rosalia's birth place:
DAMMRATSCH is the given place on the handwritten genealogy found in my fathers memorbilia after his death.  It gives the date of  23 Aug. 1854.
It also states that they were married on 28 Feb., 1874 at Bundemf.  However, I have not been able to establish a city or village that comes close to this spelling.  Knowing the G in German handwriting I honestly believe they could have been seeing the name Grundorf and did not translate it correctly (speculation only)  I have not seen the original documentation of these dates and places  but, I have a feeling that it came from a portion of the following document that has somehow gotten left off as the part describing Rosalia in the typed translation is not seen on the copy of the document that I have.

Emigration Application
:  Typed Translation
From this record we find a new place name, KROGULLNO.  It seems to be the place that Daniel was residing at the time he put in for the application in Nov. 1873.

Now we have 3 major place names all in and around the same area of Oppeln.  GRUNDORF-1849 (Daniel's birth place), DAMMRATSCH-1853 (Rosalia's birth place), and KROGULNO-1873 (Daniel's place of residence at the time of application.

TIME FRAME
Getting to the time of Emmigration.  I have a couple of real questions here.  I have always gone by the copy of the emigration paper to determine my date of 1874 arrival in Nebraska.  However,  there seems to be some conflict here.  Even though the application states that it was only good for 6 months, I find a Dan and Rosa Gutman in a passenger list on the Leipzig, arriving in New York on 9 Oct 1875.  Now this could or could not be them but, it really looks to be them.  Also the fact that the final deed is signed in 1885 makes me think that this could be right as you had to live on and work the homestead for 10 years to make it officailly yours.  Now whether he got an extension on the emmigration paper or I am way off base is unknown.  

We know that they were married in Feb of 1874 and their first son, Louie, was born in October of 1875 and died July 1879 at the age of 3 yrs 8 mo.  Which means that if I have the right Rosa and Dan she would have been very pregnant at the time of their arrival.  So I am still wondering about that.  I will just have to keep looking.

THOMALLA TIE IN
My newest set of questions and answers comes for a message I received from Keith Andrews a couple of weeks ago.  I am pasting parts of that message and follow up messages so you can follow through with me.

1st message dated 10/17/2003:
I stumbled upon your webpage when doing a search for "Krogulno".  I grew up in the Cambridge, NE area.  Some of my relatives originated in Krogulno and after looking at your site I see that Daniel Gutzman settled right next to my relatives.  I am related to the Thomalla's which came from Krogulno.  If you look at the plat map on your site, you will find John Thomalla with land just to the northeast of Daniel Gutzman.  I am also related to the Brown's, Sayer's, and Andrews' to the east and north of Daniel Gutzman.
    I thought I would send you an email to let you know that there were other families from Krogulno in the area in case you did not know already.  The name Karash may have come from there also............I may use some of your information about Krogulno for personal reference if you do not mind.  Here is a site about the Thomalla's.  Just this evening I figured out how to translate it, but it gives some information concerning Krogulno.  I can forward what may pertain once I have it translated if you would like me to.  There is not much, but there may be something there for you. http://www.thomalla.info/

Of course this sent me on a search binge.  I just had to check out the thomalla web site and see what I could find.  And what a find.  It is all in German but, there is enough english for me to find the "family trees" section. (you can see this information at the site above. Click on "Family Trees" then "Carlsrue (Pokoj)" click the "S" and look for Stodolka)  Then it was just a matter of searching.  Low-and-belhold, I found Thomallas married to Stodolkas.  Now mind you that there are only three Stodolkas in the tree but, noting the birth and death of Maria really sent me to thinking.  There is Simon Stodolka married to Ewa Jendro with daughter Maria Stodalka.  Maria's birth place is Dammratsch, and death place is Gruendorf.  Same as Rosa's.  Coincidence????  Who knows.

2nd message from Keith dated 10/18/2003:
I looked at my information and it says that the Thomalla's came to America in 1874.  I looked back at your website and it looks as if they likely would have come at the same time and traveled together.  My relatives that emigrated were John Thomalla b. June 22, 1833 and Caroline (Misterek) Thomalla b. Feb. 17, 1835 so they would have been approximately 16 yrs older than your relatives.
    I've just decided to send the obituaries to you.  You may note that in John's obit that it states that they homesteaded in May of 1874.  You may also note that in John's obit that the year is mis-stated as 1854 rather than 1874.  I do not have any of the papers for emigration or homesteading etc.
    I hope this can help you in some way.


Having received this message I went into my Germans to America listings and found the Tomalla's passenger list.  Of course,  I couldn't find Dan and Rosa on this ship so am still having to go with the Leipzig ship list, though I really don't see how this could be them.

4/17/2004  I FOUND IT!!!!!  Yes, Daniel and Rosa did travel to America on the same ship as the Thomala's.  I now have a copy of the actual page.  As usual the name is butchered but, I am absolutely certain this is them.  The name looks more like Kurtzmann, but, Daniel and Rosalie can't be wrong.  The ages match perfectly with the birthdates that I have.  And, there is just one family between them and the Thomalla's.  Now, I am more sure than ever that Rosa was somehow related to the Thomalla's, it's just a matter of finding all of the right records... Click to view passenger list

I also contactd Josef Thomalla, the owner of the Thomalla site.  These are his replies:

10/19/2003

All the information I have about the Thomalla and Stodolka families near by Carlsruhe (now in  Poland it is named Pokoj), I have found in the church register books of Bankwitz, some kilometers in the north / north west of Carlsruhe and some kilometers in the south east of Namslau. Krogulno and some other smal villages are a part of the catholic parish of Bankwitz. In the year 1798, I hope this is correkt, Carlsruhe became separate books but the smal villages every time were a part of Bankwitz. They did not change the parish.

10/22/2003
On my website, you will find some pictures of the area where your ancestors are from. I've taken this picture on the 25th Mai 200. You can lookt at them, when you will open "Reiseberichte" and then "Reise II" . There you will find on the main site the word "Reisetage" with numbers from 1 to 14. Please select No 7. and then klick on "Zum Bilderbuch".  Note:  To tranlate portions of this page I use Babel Fish, by Alta Vista http://babelfish.altavista.com/.  Simply copy the section of text you want to translate and paste it to the appropriate box.  Then choose German to English in the drop down box.  IT WORKS.
 
In the old Bankwitz church registers in the 18th century, I often found entries of both confessions, catholic (rk) and evangelic (protestant) (ev.). Over a long time I saw this and not only in Bankwitz. In the early times, I think it was very easy for a protestant to marry a catholic when the catholic people converted to the protestand church. But I think, the other way was very hard.

I don't know where to find the lutheran church registers.

April 25, 2004
Yet another website containing all of the names, Stodolka, Karash, and Thomalla.  There just has to be a connection somewhere.  I seem to be able to find every name but Gutzman.  But, I just know I am on the brink of something.

Sept 2004
Found Rosalia Stodalka b. Aug 23, 1853 to Joseph Stodalka and Suanna Walek at the LDS Family Search site.  I can't imagine there being more that 2 Rosalia's born the same day in Prussia in that particular time period.  I have on assumption added Joseph and Susanna to my family tree as Rosa's parents.  The source given was a microfilm so am pretty sure that is her.  I am going to order that film and go over it myself in hopes of finding more connections.

Dec 2004
Another name discovered.  Going back over the Walek name I decided to check some of the websites with the other names (Karash, Stodolka, and Thomalla).  Sure enough there are Waleks mingled in all of them.  Infact Josef  has a Susanna Walek in his tree that would be just about the right age to be Rosa mother.  Ofcoursce, that is still just coincidence at this point but, I am more and more convinced of the relationship now.  I have ordered the microfilms that I believe will tell us the story.  I am anxious to see if any of my hunches come to pass.  Atleast, I have high hopes of finding Daniel's and Rosa's marriage record.


                              
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